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Old 02-17-2017, 02:54 AM   #15591
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Originally Posted by Davetastic View Post
You make it seem like the last 250 pilots hired here are the dregs of society....give them some credit. I AGREE that nothing can compare to a lifetime of experience....but pay won't automatically attract those with a lifetime of experience. In all likelihood, those with the lifetime of experience are going to stay parked where they are currently sitting.


Yes.....a legacy candidate with no CA time will face just as many challenges as a new hire here would with respect to a few differences. A 14hr flight and an ops bulletin saying "this switch should be on prior to flight" is not hard to comprehend. Are there no dmi's or ops bulletins on the 747's at other carriers?

I get what you are trying to say but in a "very controlled passenger domestic environment the WX is just as extreme as anywhere and with regards to sensitive cargo......are passengers not sensitive cargo? And what is so hard about plotting? and radio calls? So what you are saying is that legacy pilots have learners permits and we mighty Atlas pilots are the semi drivers?!!!.............(withdrawn).

I am not taking anything away from our plight to continue to fight for better work rules and pay rates but it is frustrating that guys on this forum seem to exaggerate to such an extent to make it seem that we do a job SOOOOOOOOO much different than the legacies that we should be paid more. Yes we should be paid more. But our operations are not so drastically different. They move metal...we move metal, farther.
You're kidding right? Do you actually work here? How many different variants of a 747 or a 767 do they fly at other carriers? How often do they swap, daily, between passenger and cargo ops and between day and night ops while transiting the globe under a crappy contract with shoddy work rules/minimal contractual protections and declining experience levels? How often does a pilot at legacy carrier fly a 747-8, a 747-400, a BCF and an LCF in one pattern? How often do they get min rest while doing this? How often do they circle the globe in less than a week? How often do they circle the globe twice in a month? How often do they sit the 3 kinds of reserve that we do and get paid below industry standard for it or not paid at all (R-1)? How often do the legacy guys have to play travel agent for themselves because the responsible party didn't set up air or ground trans and couldn't bother to make sure the hotel was squared away after an 18-20 hour day? How often does a legacy guy have to fight to enforce a shoddy CBA against an entity that pushes its boundaries at every opportunity? Your right, it's basically the same job... (insert sarcastic tone here) why should we get paid more? Heck we should thankful for what we have... maybe we should even seek to work for less because our job is actually easier... it's not like we carry people or anything...
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Old 02-17-2017, 03:52 AM   #15592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davetastic
...guys on this forum seem to exaggerate to such an extent to make it seem that we do a job SOOOOOOOOO much different...
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Originally Posted by rmr1992 View Post
You're kidding right? Do you actually work here? How many different variants of a 747 or a 767 do they fly at other carriers? How often do they swap, daily, between passenger and cargo ops and between day and night ops while transiting the globe under a crappy contract with shoddy work rules/minimal contractual protections and declining experience levels? How often does a pilot at legacy carrier fly a 747-8, a 747-400, a BCF and an LCF in one pattern? How often do they get min rest while doing this? How often do they circle the globe in less than a week? How often do they circle the globe twice in a month? How often do they sit the 3 kinds of reserve that we do and get paid below industry standard for it or not paid at all (R-1)? How often do the legacy guys have to play travel agent for themselves because the responsible party didn't set up air or ground trans and couldn't bother to make sure the hotel was squared away after an 18-20 hour day? How often does a legacy guy have to fight to enforce a shoddy CBA against an entity that pushes its boundaries at every opportunity? Your right, it's basically the same job... (insert sarcastic tone here) why should we get paid more? Heck we should thankful for what we have... maybe we should even seek to work for less because our job is actually easier... it's not like we carry people or anything...
Damn, dude. It's like you're trying to prove Dave's point. How many times in the last 12 months have you circled the globe twice in one month? More importantly, who cares? I've been here two years and I've done it exactly zero times. You want more pay, more respect, better work rules? Great, so do I. But don't act like you're god's gift to aviation because you put the right autopilot to command and let the airplane take you around the world. 744, 748, BCF, LCF, don't care. They are all basically the same. We even get a little book to tell us what the differences are. Big *******ing deal.

Look, we have a tough job and we get paid garbage compared to our peers, but lets not go off the reservation trying to make people feel sorry for us. It only serves to undermine our position. Our argument for parity is strong enough without having to resort to gross exaggerations of our prowess in the cockpit. Besides, the people who need convincing aren't listening anyway.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:05 AM   #15593
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Damn, dude. It's like you're trying to prove Dave's point. How many times in the last 12 months have you circled the globe twice in one month? More importantly, who cares? I've been here two years and I've done it exactly zero times. You want more pay, more respect, better work rules? Great, so do I. But don't act like you're god's gift to aviation because you put the right autopilot to command and let the airplane take you around the world. 744, 748, BCF, LCF, don't care. They are all basically the same. We even get a little book to tell us what the differences are. Big *******ing deal.

Look, we have a tough job and we get paid garbage compared to our peers, but lets not go off the reservation trying to make people feel sorry for us. It only serves to undermine our position. Our argument for parity is strong enough without having to resort to gross exaggerations of our prowess in the cockpit. Besides, the people who need convincing aren't listening anyway.

^^^Exactly^^^
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:13 AM   #15594
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No one I know is claiming to attempt negotiations with mngmnt on APC...there are other channels for that through the union.

The information being presented here is for others to be informed and have a better picture of what is going on.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:39 AM   #15595
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No one I know is claiming to attempt negotiations with mngmnt on APC...there are other channels for that through the union.

The information being presented here is for others to be informed and have a better picture of what is going on.

Agreed but I don't think anyone here is trying to negotiate. In my case, I am just trying to tone down the rhetoric and bring the wildly slanted exaggerations back toward the middle so that those interested may make an informed decision on Atlas. .....but yes we are underpaid.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:31 AM   #15596
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No one I know is claiming to attempt negotiations with mngmnt on APC...there are other channels for that through the union.

The information being presented here is for others to be informed and have a better picture of what is going on.
... And I think we're doing a stellar job of informing them. If your options are Atlas or a Regional with Flow through plus a signing bonus then go with the Regional. Atlas is a pathetic job.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:10 AM   #15597
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... And I think we're doing a stellar job of informing them. If your options are Atlas or a Regional with Flow through plus a signing bonus then go with the Regional. Atlas is a pathetic job.

It seems as though you would take a regional job right now would you not? If Atlas is so pathetic why don't you leave? (rhetorical). In other words, Atlas is working for you right now so that is why Atlas is the best option for YOU....currently. If you have your apps out then obviously Atlas is a second choice. If you'd rather be at a regional or a 135 or another 121 and have applied but the phone isn't ringing ......." a bird in the hand.....". But to say that someone should take a regional job because it has a signing bonus and "flow through" (flow hasn't existed for years....it's called a CPP and it's subject to limitations depending on carrier), undermines one's position if they say one thing and do another.

I am not going to come on this forum and say a candidate should do this or that because I have no idea what is driving a particular persons decision making. Atlas works for ME and me alone for my particular situation. If any one of a multitude of variables changes in my situation then I will re-evaluate my decisions. I'll give my experience about Atlas but I will never say to anyone what they should or shouldn't do because it will all have been based on my life components and not someones else's.

To say Atlas is a "toxic work environment" in my opinion is a falsehood. If that were the case then the company would be subject to lawsuits. I come to work, the company follows the contract. When they don't, I decline to accept new pattern. Period. I have never been called in the the Chiefs office for declining. I have never flown with a crew that has had such a difference of opinion that has made it unsafe or "toxic". And if your opinion of a "toxic" work environment doesn't mean unsafe then how can it be SOOOO toxic"?

Bottom line: We are underpaid. We need better work rules. .....OH and EVERYONE SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM ATLAS AND I HOPE I GET FURLOUGHED BECAUSE THIS PLACE IS A SINKING SHIP AND I WANT TO BE UNEMPLOYED.....yada yada yada..... (sarcasm here in case I need to explain).

And before you come unglued Globemaster.....this post isn't for you personally, it's for ALL those who feel this way.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:01 PM   #15598
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Originally Posted by Shibuya View Post
Been looking for that article myself. Cannot find it. Is it possible to hold a certificate without any aircraft or operations?
I mis-read the article. It stated that Atlas was PLANNING to sell it that quarter...they anticipated a buyer coming through...didn't happen.

Atlas is shutting the operation on that certificate down...
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:47 PM   #15599
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Originally Posted by Davetastic View Post
It seems as though you would take a regional job right now would you not? If Atlas is so pathetic why don't you leave? (rhetorical). In other words, Atlas is working for you right now so that is why Atlas is the best option for YOU....currently. If you have your apps out then obviously Atlas is a second choice. If you'd rather be at a regional or a 135 or another 121 and have applied but the phone isn't ringing ......." a bird in the hand.....". But to say that someone should take a regional job because it has a signing bonus and "flow through" (flow hasn't existed for years....it's called a CPP and it's subject to limitations depending on carrier), undermines one's position if they say one thing and do another.

I am not going to come on this forum and say a candidate should do this or that because I have no idea what is driving a particular persons decision making. Atlas works for ME and me alone for my particular situation. If any one of a multitude of variables changes in my situation then I will re-evaluate my decisions. I'll give my experience about Atlas but I will never say to anyone what they should or shouldn't do because it will all have been based on my life components and not someones else's.

To say Atlas is a "toxic work environment" in my opinion is a falsehood. If that were the case then the company would be subject to lawsuits. I come to work, the company follows the contract. When they don't, I decline to accept new pattern. Period. I have never been called in the the Chiefs office for declining. I have never flown with a crew that has had such a difference of opinion that has made it unsafe or "toxic". And if your opinion of a "toxic" work environment doesn't mean unsafe then how can it be SOOOO toxic"?

Bottom line: We are underpaid. We need better work rules. .....OH and EVERYONE SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM ATLAS AND I HOPE I GET FURLOUGHED BECAUSE THIS PLACE IS A SINKING SHIP AND I WANT TO BE UNEMPLOYED.....yada yada yada..... (sarcasm here in case I need to explain).

And before you come unglued Globemaster.....this post isn't for you personally, it's for ALL those who feel this way.
Good post, like most things in this current internet based Alternative fact world most things are somewhere in the middle. That being said my motivation to help these fools in Purchase at all has been zero ever since they quit negotiating, and yes my apps are out at all the Legacies, and FedEx, UPS. But for most of us it's not as easy as just getting on next month at United/Delta, though it may get like that soon. My main objective is not to judge any new hire as not worthy of being at Atlas, that will not help our case, though I have quit recommending anyone come here.
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Old Yesterday, 08:58 PM   #15600
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Originally Posted by Davetastic View Post
If Atlas is so pathetic why don't you leave? (rhetorical). In other words, Atlas is working for you right now so that is why Atlas is the best option for YOU....currently. If you have your apps out then obviously Atlas is a second choice. If you'd rather be at a regional or a 135 or another 121 and have applied but the phone isn't ringing ......." a bird in the hand.....". I am not going to come on this forum and say a candidate should do this or that because I have no idea what is driving a particular persons decision making. Atlas works for ME and me alone for my particular situation. If any one of a multitude of variables changes in my situation then I will re-evaluate my decisions. I'll give my experience about Atlas but I will never say to anyone what they should or shouldn't do because it will all have been based on my life components and not someones else's.
To pull out the old hack of "if it's so bad, why don't you just leave" is an extremely insulting and antagonistic thing to say to fellow pilots. It is totally appropriate to complain about the job I have AND warn others about coming to work at Atlas. There are many, many pilots trying to leave and who will leave when they get the chance, but because they haven't yet left that is by no means an endorsement of the company nor is it a reason to suggest that Atlas applicants should come here to work. Sometimes the people in a burning building are stuck there and cant break the window to jump, or want to wait for the firemen to bring the net, or believe it will eventually rain, but that doesn't mean that they would recommend that you take the elevator up to their office for an interview.

Unionism is not about helping yourself, it's all about helping out the group, including the group of guys that are trying to establish careers for themselves. In the long run, helping out the group IS helping yourself. Yes, you can say that any job is better than none, but that is not necessarily true. The future of Atlas is VERY uncertain right now and in the next year, a new hire may very well: 1. be furloughed, 2. be on strike, 3. be fired because of training issues, or 4. miss the hiring wave at other, more stable and rewarding airlines, etc., etc.

People come to these boards to get information and opinions. The current information contains facts that point to Atlas being a very bad place to work based on many, many popular and important factors. So if you "will never say to anyone what they should or shouldn't do" that is your prerogative, but that doesn't give you the right to criticize others for trying to help aspiring applicants make informed decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davetastic View Post

... I come to work, the company follows the contract. When they don't, I decline to accept new pattern. Period. I have never been called in the the Chiefs office for declining. I have never flown with a crew that has had such a difference of opinion that has made it unsafe or "toxic". And if your opinion of a "toxic" work environment doesn't mean unsafe then how can it be SOOOO toxic"?

Dave I know you've only been here two years or so and you are certainly entitled to your opinion but, as they say, you are not entitled to your own facts. Atlas does not follow the contract. Every day, there are scheduling issues, payroll issues, hotel issues, travel issues, training issues, catering issues, etc., etc. Every day. And these are not mistakes, it is a systemic culture within Atlas operations to disregard our contract. We have had this contract for five years and they STILL violate it on a daily basis. The sad part is that many pilots never know their contractual rights are being violated. The other sad part is that the company could fix most all of these violations very easily.

But the most egregious violation that we live with every day is the company's refusal to continue section 6 contract negotiations. This failure is costing you time, health, and a lot of pay every day, and yet you somehow cannot bring yourself to bring this paramount issue to the attention of Atlas applicants. That's fine if you have some real reason for keeping yourself out of that discussion, but you have spent the last 12 posts criticizing others for bringing this and other problems to the attention of applicants while defending your own position that things aren't so bad here.

The stress caused by Atlas management's refusal to follow our contract, to negotiate in good faith, and their recent decision to sue us, their own employees, is what is creating the toxic work environment, not interpersonal issues among the crews. Airline pilots are constantly trained to mitigate problems and reduce cockpit stress. Unfortunately, the decisions made by the management group at Atlas have increased this stress exponentially.

Safety is no longer their number one concern.

Money is.


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