Davetastic

Jack, you clearly have been critical of me for being critical of the union...but this post seems to give the impression that you agree that the union is in no hurry settle while the money is pouring in.....is that your position? If so, why have you been so critical of me for the exact same position if you acknowledge the very reason I have been so vocal about our predicament?



(This is an honest attempt to engage in dialogue and no offense or sarcasm intended or implied).

Globemaster2827

Dave... To give you an idea about why just about everyone is arguing with you and treating you like a troll, let me ask you this question. From your extensive knowledge of negotiations what offer is "the union" refusing to settle? Just what do you think "the union" could agree to today that the company would offer?

My personal opinion from talking to those in the room is that we could agree to an Amalgamation with Southern's work rules (28 hour work days, No business class international, no vacation, no rig.. etc) and average our work rules with Southern's. That'd mean an extra day or two of work away from home for you. It'd mean current book retirement. It'd mean a 5 year deal. It'd mean current book SCOPE... At best. It'd mean Kalitta rates. Less for a 767 Captain. Is that really what you want?

Furthermore... You pay them dues as you complain about. Leadership would be very receptive to your phone call and keep you directly updated if you cared to ask BK, CK or YP what the exact offer is that they're rejecting. Have you ever called them to ask? (Hint... I know the answer to the question...) PM me if you need phone numbers or you can get them off the 1224 website.

Now ask yourself this... Is BF gonna be taking your call to listen to your concerns?

Also... Stop with the conspiracy theories about "The money pouring in"... We're fighting for an "Industry Standard (or Leading) Contract". Every one of our EXCO would be making more money in that scenario and would work far less...

...Just trying to get you on our team.

suddenimpact

A lot of what you say as their proxy is true. A lot of what BK did to get us in this situation was not mentioned.

Much of this circles around credibility. The company obviously is going to say what ever they need to for a better deal. Our leadership elected by a majority of new members unaware of their credibility but liked what they had to say vs the reality we are collectively having to live out now is showing it's face.

1. BK embarrassed us collectively as pilots in the 90's and served his time. He was part of the team that dragged out the Polar-Atlas merger. He had to play "I'm the new sheriff in town" drop kicking company leadership in the nards as soon as he could once elected establishing a rather negative situation right off the bat. Members are now regularly questioning what he says because of his past statements that don't match up to the later truth. I noticed that right off knowing much of our history. I could go on but won't.
2. CK is little better having sabotaged the previous administrations efforts to improve our retirement by posting about a possible LOA on APC here that was being negotiated and how it was going to be shoved down our throats which was untrue. Not sure if he was really worried about it or if he just needed something to use for his campaign to get elected. Would have been nice to work from a better LOA on retirement voted on by the membership vs none as we are now due to his efforts. He gave the company an excuse to back out once it hit these forums.
3. Can't say much about YP. He does what he is told, looking at some of his past posts carrying the message of the day.

While I would much prefer holding these types of conversations among our own, our leadership has stopped that also. Unwilling to listen to the membership as listed earlier on the official web forums preventing posts to them and the facebook page that actively restricts members posts and members allowed to access it.


I would much rather have our own little private union playground for all of this to transpire on since the company does watch these pages along with the facebook page--regularly! But they took that away from us and this is what we have left since the leadership you mentioned won't even answer the union emergency number for those not willing to kiss their posteriors. So much for DFR in the union. Another rule they don't bother with.


If you doubt the company spends time watching several online forums and our facebook page, here is an example of them watching and refreshing regularly from Purchase a few years ago. This is a shot of a few views of about eleven thousand lines of views where one of our now ExCo used these forums to sabotage a retirement LOA and/or help his election to office. The highlighted parts are a few of the Atlas company viewings of the postings. I pulled all the super sensitive stuff and replaced it with the term Netscape.


HERE is also a whois search for the IP address.






The same IP shows up on the GC_Comms facebook page also.

So our leadership needs to think more than just one step ahead at a time. This game is chess and our leadership is playing checkers.

For now, it looks like we are doomed to finish waiting for the courts and then arbiters to decide.

Globemaster2827

I've been around 7 years so I'm aware of recent history more than the average guy. I haven't been around as long as you to have the perspective of BK from the merger, but I will say this... The "new" guys only had one slate to vote for because nobody else cared to run including you. If some of the older guys had issues with BK prior to 2015 then maybe one of them should've put together a slate.

As for CK shutting down the pension that they were dangling in front of us like Lucy with a football... Young guys such as myself are intelligent enough to know that if Delta, American and United will steal your pension that Atlas would try to file bankruptcy with record profits to steal mine. Teamsters? Are people serious about Teamsters managing their retirement? I'm all for an Industry Standard Retirement but I would like a say as to what that will be. None - NONE of the younger guys want a pension. None. Furthermore... What happens to everyone who comes to Atlas and leaves? I'm not likely to retire at Atlas. What do I get for my 7 years of punishment at Atlas? That was an extremely selfish move for the old guys to attempt to ram a pension that Atlas will raid down our throats. I bet the surveys yielded an 80% or more support for a direct contribution into a 401k. I am not privy to that information though.

I don't ever have trouble getting a hold of leadership and don't know anyone who does. I understand there's a personality conflict in your situation. Maybe accusing them of stealing money has something to do with that. If you want to change rules then fine but the accusations are over the line. That being said they still take your calls on crew call ins and try to listen. Maybe a personal apology for the accusations would help. If you have proof they're stealing then maybe the authorities would be a more appropriate venue for this than APC.

Leadership is well aware they watch this stuff on line. I know I heard them talk about it on a crew call in. I fully agree that I see things said that shouldn't be both on Facebook and here. The company was allegedly able to see the message board that nobody uses anymore as well.

I also agree that we're looking at years and years of court decisions to settle this out. Sadly that's our best option, though I do know that Amalgamation does have it supporters among us.

Cheers and I'll see you out on the line!

Davetastic

Globe, I'm not a conspiracy theory guy. I have NEVER even made reference to a conspiracy. We get a contract and the assessment goes away. That is not a conspiracy. That is fact. Thus, I don't think the union is in "any hurry". I heard what you said and it is obvious that you are firmly entrenched into the "amalgamation" argument. I have read numerous previous mergers and acquisitions awards and I know that if/when contract negotiations get to that point and moreover specific to our contract, an arbitrator must take into consideration proposals from both sides that account for industry peer comparisons, career expectations, and other elements before an award can be issued. So to expect me to believe that we'd go backwards from what we currently have and bring Southern up to parity is not realistic.



I have NEVER said that the union is refusing to settle. Please go back and search all of my words. I am confident you will never see that.



I have brought my concerns to EXCO members during new hire meetings when they have been present and to be quite honest we just get glazed over with political double speak. I'm not impressed.

Davetastic

^^^^^^^^^^
This.

Davetastic

I don't think there is anybody that "supports" the "amalgamation" as it has been coined. It is the successorship section of the CBA. It is just what we are stuck with at this point. I think the frustration comes from knowing that since we are destined to lose this "minor" dispute in the eyes of an arbitrator, why are we delaying the inevitable? The answer is because our union leadership would rather risk the viability of the airline and it's relationship with valuable business partners to perpetuate attrition. I understand it, I just don't agree. IMO, it won't change the path nor the substance of the negotiations. In this day and age during this unprecedented time in our industry, I think diplomacy would have yielded greater results. If anything were to happen that resulted in the loss of a contract, the union is at risk of liability for condoning the SHOP and BOOT and perhaps even for just the perception that the union condoned such a hard line stance from the labor group and perhaps we could all be out of jobs. You think BK cares? NO! He is retired.

NightIP

So, to the guys who think the leadership is mishandling things: How have you been involved to help our cause? What have you done recently for our pilot group? Usually, the biggest complainers are the ones who do the least amount of work, then have their hands outstretched for the loot when everyone else does the work for them. Am I wrong?

Help me out here. Help me understand how this talk on APC is helping our cause.

Screwed

Davetastic;

BK is not retired. You are jumping the gun. Soon, but not yet. And when he does retire he gets to stick around and run the union. The rules were changed after the election.

As far as which group is good or bad, or which group do I support.....it is real simple.

One group is fighting to get us a raise in compensation and benefits. One group will protect my job if it is threatened. Do I pay a lot for these services? Absolutely. Maybe even too much. Is there an alternative?

The other group is trying to take away the few good work rules we have. They are also trying to severely limit an increase in compensation. This same group lies and cheats. They also pay themselves industry leading compensation and awards themselves huge bonuses.

Which group should we support?

JackStraw

^This^

The men and women in the union fight the good fight day in and day out to make our QOL as good as they can. They keep the crew scheduling and crew planning departments honest when they try to undermine what little protections we have in the CBA. They win grievances on behalf of us. They represent us when the company hands down ludicrous disciplinary punishments for petty intimidation reasons. It’s not the union cashing in; FPL is a drop in the bucket. The real winners in this are those sending out the invoices for the billable hour$.