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Old 12-09-2013, 03:34 PM
  #7311  
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Originally Posted by Galaxydriver View Post
As another 747 FO, I'm with you, but I think the only chance of that was during the last contract. I think it's too late for that now.
Never say never...
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:54 PM
  #7312  
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Originally Posted by Galaxydriver View Post
As another 747 FO, I'm with you, but I think the only chance of that was during the last contract. I think it's too late for that now.
It is never too late. It depends on what we are willing to do to get what we want. Next CBA, we could get the worst contract in the industry or the absolute best contract in the industry...or something in between. It just depends on this pilot group and what we are willing to fight for.
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:06 AM
  #7313  
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Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville View Post
It is never too late. It depends on what we are willing to do to get what we want. Next CBA, we could get the worst contract in the industry or the absolute best contract in the industry...or something in between. It just depends on this pilot group and what we are willing to fight for.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you will get a majority of the union to go for it. The amount of money available for pay increases is likely a finite amount and we probably do have the ability to influence how it is allocated. The problem is bringing 767 (or 777) pay up to 747 levels will result in a smaller increase for the 747 guys. Seeing as the majority of pilots and the most senior pilots are on the 747 I can't see them sacrificing their pay for more junior crewmembers. It would go against industry history - why did our new hire pay get extended until the end of OE vs 1st flight? -Why are their airlines that still don't pay for hotels during initial training? Because those things are not what the more senior guys are willing to fight for. It might not be a conscious decision but it is the end result.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:54 AM
  #7314  
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Galaxy, you can't start negotiations with that kind of mentality. It might seem far fetched to be able to get such a pay scale but if presented to the company in a logical manner they might go for it. On the other hand if this sort of pay scale is the most important for the pilot group over anything else, then the union will make sure to make it a priority and will hold out on signing new contract until they get it.
The point you are making is valid, but your examples are purely economics, investing in a new hire is expensive, hence the lower pay and all for first year, and it's a time to see if their new hire fits the mold, or is able to pass training.
I am a believer that the company should pay for hotel for their new hires, I don't think the senior people are out to get the new hires but sometimes the company finds very clever ways to get around the contract as we a all know.
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:56 PM
  #7315  
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Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville View Post
It is never too late. It depends on what we are willing to do to get what we want. Next CBA, we could get the worst contract in the industry or the absolute best contract in the industry...or something in between. It just depends on this pilot group and what we are willing to fight for.
Absolutely!
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:57 PM
  #7316  
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Pay scales alone only paint a small piece of the compensation puzzle. An important foundation, but $300/hr means nothing unless the work rules support the wage increase.

And nothing is worth it to make a livable wage based on working overtime or 17 days/mo to attain it.

Hard lines with no reserve - ever; No more hybrid lines - if they can't find 17 days of work, build a line with less days; No extensions; trip displacement credit added to the reassigned trip credit or credit for pay and days off, CRT starts at your first AWARDED report; you hold the line your seniority entitles, with the company having to resolve conflicts; Max days on 15 inclusive of gateway; Company paid healthcare, dental, vision; 17.3% B-Plan; Your awarded trip goes, even close, you fly it; anchored r2; DH 1:1 maximum - no more than 50% of supernumery seats on company AC 1:1.5 on commercial business or better outside conus or lower 48 greater than 3 hours; CRT 1:3.5; Bids awarded end of month prior (I.e. Mar awards posted 25 Jan)

Then, the pay is bonus. Do the math based on your CY13 schedules at your present rate and see how it would affect your W2.

I could go on, but it'll become tl;dr. I think the idea is sufficiently put forth.

In solidarity (Or if you prefer Super Troopers: "Same team! Same team!"

Last edited by JerrySpringer; 12-10-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:01 PM
  #7317  
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Originally Posted by JerrySpringer View Post
Pay scales alone only paint a small piece of the compensation puzzle. An important foundation, but $300/hr means nothing unless the work rules support the wage increase.

And nothing is worth it to make a livable wage based on working overtime or 17 days/mo to attain it.

Hard lines with no reserve - ever; No more hybrid lines - if they can't find 17 days of work, build a line with less days; No extensions; trip displacement credit added to the reassigned trip credit or credit for pay and days off, CRT starts at your first AWARDED report; you hold the line your seniority entitles, with the company having to resolve conflicts; Max days on 15 inclusive of gateway; Company paid healthcare, dental, vision; 17.3% B-Plan; Your awarded trip goes, even close, you fly it; anchored r2; DH 1:1 maximum - no more than 50% of supernumery seats on company AC 1:1.5 on commercial business or better outside conus or lower 48 greater than 3 hours; CRT 1:3.5; Bids awarded end of month prior (I.e. Mar awards posted 25 Jan)

Then, the pay is bonus. Do the math based on your CY13 schedules at your present rate and see how it would affect your W2.

I could go on, but it'll become tl;dr. I think the idea is sufficiently put fourth.

In solidarity (Or if you prefer Super Troopers: "Same team! Same team!"
Jerry Springer for NC chairman.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:22 PM
  #7318  
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Originally Posted by JerrySpringer View Post
Pay scales alone only paint a small piece of the compensation puzzle. An important foundation, but $300/hr means nothing unless the work rules support the wage increase.

And nothing is worth it to make a livable wage based on working overtime or 17 days/mo to attain it.

Hard lines with no reserve - ever; No more hybrid lines - if they can't find 17 days of work, build a line with less days; No extensions; trip displacement credit added to the reassigned trip credit or credit for pay and days off, CRT starts at your first AWARDED report; you hold the line your seniority entitles, with the company having to resolve conflicts; Max days on 15 inclusive of gateway; Company paid healthcare, dental, vision; 17.3% B-Plan; Your awarded trip goes, even close, you fly it; anchored r2; DH 1:1 maximum - no more than 50% of supernumery seats on company AC 1:1.5 on commercial business or better outside conus or lower 48 greater than 3 hours; CRT 1:3.5; Bids awarded end of month prior (I.e. Mar awards posted 25 Jan)

Then, the pay is bonus. Do the math based on your CY13 schedules at your present rate and see how it would affect your W2.

I could go on, but it'll become tl;dr. I think the idea is sufficiently put forth.

In solidarity (Or if you prefer Super Troopers: "Same team! Same team!"
You have some good concepts, but some don't work with ACMI. If aircraft flew on a dedicated schedule then its a no brainer to say no extensions. However, when the customer controls the aircraft and potential reroutes or schedule changes, and you have the airplane on the other side of the world, extensions become a necessity. The issue is how to manage them as closely as possible.

As far as pay rates, the negotiation should be to increase the 747 rates and leave the current 747 rate as the new 767/777 rate.

One of the mistakes often made is trying to apply passenger and scheduled domestic service logic to a worldwide ACMI operation. It's like mixing apples and hand grenades. It is one of the problems the company faces on a daily basis with ground types who came from the domestic scheduled business and have tried to use that type of modeling with ACMI...like having crewbases. It doesn't work.

To get a better understanding of the different dynamics, you really need to understand what was AACS and how something like that could well impact the future.

There are ways to accomplish goals. One way not to is to assume that you are dealing with an airline management mindset. You're not. The management here was selected specifically because they did not come from the domestic airline revolving door. They understand logistics, supply chain and in fact can and will work with labor, provided labor doesn't walk in the door and act stupid (start thinking like domestic passenger airline groups). Do that and they will put up a wall. And if you understand the AACS scenario, you will understand that going stupid isn't the way to go.

There is a history here of two groups...one who opted to shove a hot poker in managements eye and one who stood their ground and worked for common ground. Again, understanding that dynamic will be imperative to future negotiations successes.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:28 PM
  #7319  
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Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat View Post
You have some good concepts, but some don't work with ACMI. If aircraft flew on a dedicated schedule then its a no brainer to say no extensions. However, when the customer controls the aircraft and potential reroutes or schedule changes, and you have the airplane on the other side of the world, extensions become a necessity. The issue is how to manage them as closely as possible.

As far as pay rates, the negotiation should be to increase the 747 rates and leave the current 747 rate as the new 767/777 rate.

One of the mistakes often made is trying to apply passenger and scheduled domestic service logic to a worldwide ACMI operation. It's like mixing apples and hand grenades. It is one of the problems the company faces on a daily basis with ground types who came from the domestic scheduled business and have tried to use that type of modeling with ACMI...like having crewbases. It doesn't work.

To get a better understanding of the different dynamics, you really need to understand what was AACS and how something like that could well impact the future.

There are ways to accomplish goals. One way not to is to assume that you are dealing with an airline management mindset. You're not. The management here was selected specifically because they did not come from the domestic airline revolving door. They understand logistics, supply chain and in fact can and will work with labor, provided labor doesn't walk in the door and act stupid (start thinking like domestic passenger airline groups). Do that and they will put up a wall. And if you understand the AACS scenario, you will understand that going stupid isn't the way to go.

There is a history here of two groups...one who opted to shove a hot poker in managements eye and one who stood their ground and worked for common ground. Again, understanding that dynamic will be imperative to future negotiations successes.
The flying Atlas does goes beyond a bid month. Look at all of the DHL flying...all scheduled. DoD flying...scheduled months in advance. I'm sure a small percentage is ad hoc but all of our jets don't just sit while the company hopes to maximize capacity week to week. No, we aren't DAL or UAL etc, but our contract could get a lot closer to a REAL contract. We shouldn't accept mediocracy from our own people. If things stay the way they are and folks are stuck in the 767 for years, the company will see significant training costs. The "big" airlines negotiate...why can't we? This isn't the same Atlas of 10, 15, or 20 years ago. The landscape has changed and there is a lot of room for improvement.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:53 PM
  #7320  
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We need to vote out the current EXCO for a start. Their communication is horrid. The EXCO member in charge of communication (KM) constantly belittles and talks down to the membership on the 1224 site. Our Chairman is nowhere to be found… It's going to have to be "lead from the bottom" if any of these things talked about on this thread are going to be accomplished. If things keep going on the current track our EXCO wants, the "bottom" will be cycling through as fast as possible anyways. They won't even file grievances that they feel aren't worth it!!! Atlas will be the likes of Mesa, PSA, Republic, Expressjet, etc. Get enough qualifications to apply for something better...
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