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Just shy of regional mins, ideas?

Old 08-06-2010, 12:33 PM
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Don't want to help in the derailing of this thread, but my understanding is the same. If the aircraft is under 12.5 and under Part 91 and you touch the controls you can log it.
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Old 08-06-2010, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by YellowCandle View Post
Don't want to help in the derailing of this thread, but my understanding is the same. If the aircraft is under 12.5 and under Part 91 and you touch the controls you can log it.
In the case of a King Air 100/200 that's true...if you are the PIC.

But there is no such thing as part 91 King Air SIC, so don't log that...an interviewer will consider that falsified flight time.
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Old 08-06-2010, 02:47 PM
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Lets see...

Cargo community:

Air Cargo Carriers - Shorts
IFL Group - Convair, Lear F.O. etc.
Royal Air Freight - as above.
USA Jet - Falcon 20 F.O
Ameristar - As above
Ameriflight - believe two pilot ops on the EMB120.
Cape Air - Cessna 402. If your close to 1200TT they let u sit as an f.o and log time. Become an employee after that.
Airnet - As above, although not sure if they are hiring these days.

Canyon flying:

Scenic airways -DHC6 Twin otter.

I'm sure there are others. Google is a nice thing as is this.
www.aircharterguide.com -> search by aircraft type or state or whatever.
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SD3FR8DOG View Post
Lets see...

Cargo community:

Air Cargo Carriers - Shorts
IFL Group - Convair, Lear F.O. etc.
Royal Air Freight - as above.
USA Jet - Falcon 20 F.O
Ameristar - As above
Ameriflight - believe two pilot ops on the EMB120.
Cape Air - Cessna 402. If your close to 1200TT they let u sit as an f.o and log time. Become an employee after that.
Airnet - As above, although not sure if they are hiring these days.

Canyon flying:

Scenic airways -DHC6 Twin otter.

I'm sure there are others. Google is a nice thing as is this.
www.aircharterguide.com -> search by aircraft type or state or whatever.

Thanks for the info, looks like there are all 1000 hrs+ with 50+ multi, problem is I bet the SIC don't pay junk for pay either....
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Old 08-06-2010, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wrxpilot View Post
Pretty simple really... Is the King Air flown part 91? Can't log it. Is it flown part 135 charter, and you've had a SIC checkride? You can legally log it.

I would think having to know the systems on an aircraft one has flown is basic common sense...
Show me the Reg that says you can log any SIC time in a say, King Air 200? For example, we have a Govt. BE-200 that the Ops Spec's require a Capt and an FO. Both are reguired to attend annual SIM Recurrent (Flt Safety). There is no Examiner that recognizes SIC time even though Insurance or Ops Specs require two pilots! The regs need to be updated.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by OrionFE View Post
Show me the Reg that says you can log any SIC time in a say, King Air 200? For example, we have a Govt. BE-200 that the Ops Spec's require a Capt and an FO. Both are reguired to attend annual SIM Recurrent (Flt Safety). There is no Examiner that recognizes SIC time even though Insurance or Ops Specs require two pilots! The regs need to be updated.
You can't log ANY time as SIC, although if the aircraft is used in an operation that requires one you may log it (ie on a 135 certificate.

61.51(f)(2)
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:44 AM
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Look, a part 91 Kingair A90, can be logged as PIC if you have a multi engine rating, and can fly the airplane, if some other guy has to put the right seat in and sit there because you dont meet the insurance mins, and sits on his hands, it doesnt matter for your logbook, if your flying the plane the entire time
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Old 08-07-2010, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by snippercr View Post
...if it is say a king air 90 (below 12,500) on a part 91 flight and you are the sole manipulator of the controls, can't you log it as PIC multi turbine time?
I was in that position a few years ago. I logged the time I was the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC. At every interview, I made it very clear that I was not the one "signing" for the aircraft, simply the one flying the leg. Never had any problems with it. Also, make sure you have your high perf and high alt sign offs.
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Old 08-07-2010, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by OrionFE View Post
Show me the Reg that says you can log any SIC time in a say, King Air 200? For example, we have a Govt. BE-200 that the Ops Spec's require a Capt and an FO. Both are reguired to attend annual SIM Recurrent (Flt Safety). There is no Examiner that recognizes SIC time even though Insurance or Ops Specs require two pilots! The regs need to be updated.
Sure, I'd be glad to:

135.101 Second in command required under IFR.

Except as provided in 135.105, no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a second in command in the aircraft.

135.105 also explains how one can get a single pilot exemption from this rule, however that does NOT mean the flight has to be flown single pilot after the captain and airplane meet the single pilot exemption. Below is a letter of interpretation from the FAA on this issue:

March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
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Old 08-07-2010, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by OrionFE View Post
There is no Examiner that recognizes SIC time even though Insurance or Ops Specs require two pilots! The regs need to be updated.
The regs are just fine, people just need to do a better job of understanding them. Insurance and "Ops Specs" have no bearing whatsoever on who can or cannot log SIC time, and I should hope that no examiner would use them to determine such a thing. The FAA FARs are the only way to determine this, as I explained in my post above.
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