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What's happening at Horizon and Jets?

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What's happening at Horizon and Jets?

Old 07-21-2017, 08:13 AM
  #1981  
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Originally Posted by pete2800 View Post
Real answer? Alright, here you go...


Take the QX seniority list, and staple it to the bottom of the AS pilot seniority list. Put fences in place to inhibit junior AS pilots from bidding down and bumping senior QX pilots out of their single-digit bidding power. Do the same for the flight attendants. And mechanics. Hire a few more dispatchers. Fire every manager in the Portland ops center. Save tons of money on redundant administrative costs. Have a real scope clause so a massive furlough/transfer to Skywest isn't an option. Better yet, scope all flying except for maybe a few PenAir Saabs.

The Q400 would be the junior airplane, and as seniority allowed a pilot could bid the E-jet or the Boeing. The line of applicants would be out the door and around the block. Hell, don't tell them this... but you could probably leave the Q pay alone and still have more applicants than you could shake a stick at.


It won't happen, but that would fix the problem.
As you say, that won't happen. Realistically, how do you move forward? You just got a new contract. You gave the company what they wanted.

The advice I'm hearing to CFIs is go to Horizon, get the bonus, then in a year go somewhere else and get another signing bonus. Depnding on bonuses is not a sustainable model.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:14 AM
  #1982  
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Originally Posted by snackysmores View Post
Piedmont has some of the worst schedules and QOL in the industry and their classes are FULL every month, in fact they're so full they've had to stop hiring just so their training department can catch up.

It's been proven that just throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix it.
Piedmont offers a flow, bonus money and rotor to fixed wing programs. If Horizon does any two of those, or all three, they'll be fine.

There are lots of Army helicopter pilots leaving to go to the airlines. Why would I choose Horizon when their bonus isn't as good, they won't pay for any fixed wing transition training, and don't have a flow? Simple choice not to go to them.

Despite the bad things I read about them, I would seriously consider them if they at least paid more bonus money and had their own rotor to fixed program. Even without flow.
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Old 07-21-2017, 05:41 PM
  #1983  
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Default RotorHeads Anonymous at Horizon Air???

Hello. I'm Privateer383 and I'm a RotorHead.

Yes, it's true. AND, I actually think we helo guys are ideally suited to fly the Q400. We're very hands-on, not intimidated by "slow" speeds, and are accustomed to training for much more severe "asymmetrical" thrust emergencies than are likely to be encountered in any fixed-wing (unless, of course, one wing becomes "un-fixed").

As a former military RW pilot I meet most of the R-ATP requirements, and have RW-ME turbine time which means I'm already very familiar with turbine systems, and SE procedures and power management. But I am a mere 96 hours short of FW-PIC time, and 7 hours short on FW-ME time. It's not much, but I would sure appreciate some corporate assistance for these last 103 hours (anyone have a J-3 I can rent really cheap?), in exchange for a "time at company" contract, or payback from sign-on bonus, or whatever.

As mentioned by others, there are several east coast 121 operations well-equipped to get guys like me in their cockpits, for which I'm grateful. However, I'm a west-coast guy who doesn't want to spend two-thirds of my off days commuting to and from work. Thus far I've not seen ANY rotorwing transition programs with regional airlines having west coast domiciles. (Perhaps I've overlooked them???).

I've heard rumors of a RW transition program being developed at Horizon. Does anyone have the inside scoop on this?
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Old 07-21-2017, 07:43 PM
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I only know of TSA out "west" with a transition, if you consider Denver west
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:42 PM
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Hmmm, Denver's next to Kansas, right?
That ain't west.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonneaux View Post
As you say, that won't happen. Realistically, how do you move forward? You just got a new contract. You gave the company what they wanted.

The advice I'm hearing to CFIs is go to Horizon, get the bonus, then in a year go somewhere else and get another signing bonus. Depnding on bonuses is not a sustainable model.
How do we move forward? I hate to say this, but eventually you just have to let management fail. As a work group, it's in our nature to identify threats and try to prevent high-risk consequences. However, there comes a point at which you've given management the tools they've asked for, but they're not solving the problem, and the tools they asked for were the wrong thing for the job in the first place. What can a pilot do about it? Honestly, the answer is "nothing." If they learn fast enough for the company to survive, that's great. If they don't, there's nothing you could have done to fix it anyway.
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Old 07-23-2017, 12:28 AM
  #1987  
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Originally Posted by pete2800 View Post
How do we move forward? I hate to say this, but eventually you just have to let management fail. As a work group, it's in our nature to identify threats and try to prevent high-risk consequences. However, there comes a point at which you've given management the tools they've asked for, but they're not solving the problem, and the tools they asked for were the wrong thing for the job in the first place. What can a pilot do about it? Honestly, the answer is "nothing." If they learn fast enough for the company to survive, that's great. If they don't, there's nothing you could have done to fix it anyway.
I can't agree more. I see some positive indications that QX management, particularly DC, has realized this. I think even BT at AAG may have as well.

But the proof is yet to come. So far we've been fed apology letters, nothing else yet to show for it but schedule reductions. The true test will be seeing what AAG as a whole does about this.

We can't cut our way to prosperity, that has been demonstrated already with 20 misplaced CRJs. If history repeats itself those schedule reductions will be permanent as they retire the two-fan sh*t can with little else changing.
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Old 07-23-2017, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Griever View Post
I can't agree more. I see some positive indications that QX management, particularly DC, has realized this. I think even BT at AAG may have as well.

But the proof is yet to come. So far we've been fed apology letters, nothing else yet to show for it but schedule reductions. The true test will be seeing what AAG as a whole does about this.

We can't cut our way to prosperity, that has been demonstrated already with 20 misplaced CRJs. If history repeats itself those schedule reductions will be permanent as they retire the two-fan sh*t can with little else changing.
Yep, you can lead a horse to water only so many times..

While firing BL is a huge step forward, they are in for a surprise if they think anything is going to change by that alone. Firing brad isn't going to make Q400 classes some how full again. There needs to be a significant change in management and their philosophy of running things..

My advice to them: You might have more success if your director of flight ops and VP of flight ops IS ACTUALLY A PILOT. Someone who knows what it's like to fly the line. There's WAY too many people in director level positions of power at this airline who have never flown a fking plane before. Look at any successful airlines history and the people who have ran the flight ops departments have always been line pilots at some point.
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Old 07-23-2017, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by snackysmores View Post
Yep, you can lead a horse to water only so many times..

While firing BL is a huge step forward, they are in for a surprise if they think anything is going to change by that alone. Firing brad isn't going to make Q400 classes some how full again. There needs to be a significant change in management and their philosophy of running things..

My advice to them: You might have more success if your director of flight ops and VP of flight ops IS ACTUALLY A PILOT. Someone who knows what it's like to fly the line. There's WAY too many people in director level positions of power at this airline who have never flown a fking plane before. Look at any successful airlines history and the people who have ran the flight ops departments have always been line pilots at some point.
I vote PS for Director of Ops(note 1). You know who. Seriously, they don't need someone who is a good solider and cuts deep when they want to squeeze more juice out of us for the sake of profits. They need an effective leader that can cut through Bull. PS is the only possible candidate I can think of, although I know there are other great candidates within. Perhaps they'll scalp talent fro outside.

Either way, They airline is failing at it's only job. Move stuff from A to B. That isn't hard.

Note 1: Yes, I know it's not a democracy.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:34 AM
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More to your point, it's isn't the pilot's responsibility to properly manage, staff, and lead a company. The point at which a company's labor pool is more tallented at running a company than the management is, there is a serious problem. Pilots are a unique kind of unionized work force. Are there any other kinds of heavy machine operators that are generally, well educated in both business and the machine they operate? I can't think of any.


Originally Posted by pete2800 View Post
How do we move forward? I hate to say this, but eventually you just have to let management fail. As a work group, it's in our nature to identify threats and try to prevent high-risk consequences. However, there comes a point at which you've given management the tools they've asked for, but they're not solving the problem, and the tools they asked for were the wrong thing for the job in the first place. What can a pilot do about it? Honestly, the answer is "nothing." If they learn fast enough for the company to survive, that's great. If they don't, there's nothing you could have done to fix it anyway.
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