flynshoe748

Edited....sometimes my tits get in the way of the keyboard. Blondie mistake.

DashAviator

I think Fly'n Shoe's predictions are reasonable, but I think it's more like:

Serious money is thrown at training pilots... making it rain dollars.

We'll get fewer jets than we hoped for.

More of the Q400's will stay around, just like my beater car...

Some of the bases might eventually close, but I don't expect this to happen for at least a few months. Horizon management has a lot to deal with right now and base realignment could be low priority.

Route structure changes, enhanced by more Skywest flying.

Almost nothing ever happens very fast around here. If Horizon were to start painting animals on their planes like Frontier does, our symbol would be the Great Pacific Northwest yellow-bellied banana slug. Or a glacier. Also, there may be some fallout (for Horizon and Skywest) from the Alaska arbitration. I think this comes out, appropriately enough, just before Halloween.

Klsytakesit

You are correct in the arbitration. We are seeking to limit all 70/76 seat flying performed by others...Others is defined as any aircraft over which Alaska Airlines/AG has an interest in or operational control over operated by any pilot not on the Alaska Airlines inc. master pilot seniority list. So Horizon/Skywest fall directly in that category and it includes both turbo-prop and turbo-jet aircraft.
It goes without saying that the addition of Alaska Airlines Inc management pilots to the Horizon Air Industries roster will have no immpact on scope negotiations. It is a number one priority for the pilots at Alaska Airlines.

amcnd

Alaska pilots are smart to limit scope.. only problem is your going into “Arbitration” Alaska wants to be like Delta and United for pay. Guess what. They will be like DL/UA for Scope. That means 200+ 76 seat 175’s running around. Now thats not reality based on Alaskas size. But right now you have 60 total 175’s that will be flying in AS colors...

DashAviator

Thanks for the information. I would really like to see the Alaska pilots get some strong scope protection. I'm not privy to any of the arbitration details, but it does strike me as strange that Horizon has suddenly acquired three Alaska guys in key management positions.

Klsytakesit

Not Quite..Scope is a relative concept..If we get it then there will be very few RJ's coming our way. We are currentlyat or beyond the scope limit we are seeking.

amcnd

Well that will be interesting to see shake out. Sure OO would love to get paid the next 12 year and fly the 175’s elsewhere... but i would guess it would atleast alow a hard number. And based off UA/AA/DL scope a arbitration would not favor AS pilots vs the current amount of E175’s ordered... will see i guess.. just another kick in the gut to QX pilots. Could end the E175 all together if AS alpa gets scope they want..

SIUav8er

AS pilots need to grow some balls and limit this infestation of "76 seat jets". Its seriously the goal of AAG to continue the growth of E-175 flying. Not good for any AS pilot.

Ispeakjive

public"]http://www.mailtribune.com/news/20171006/horizon-air-pilots-make-their-frustrations-public[/URL]

By Greg Stiles
Mail Tribune
Posted Oct 6, 2017 at 4:30 PM
Updated Oct 6, 2017 at 5:08 PM

Fed-up Horizon Air pilots say Alaska Air Group created the conditions leading to a pilot shortage that resulted in hundreds of flight cancellations.

Medford travelers have seen flights to Seattle cancelled and the Los Angeles route scrapped in recent months.

Horizon Air pilots, who fly Q-400 turbo-props serving small and medium markets, took their frustrations public, sending an open letter to Alaska Air Group’s Chairman and CEO Brad Tilden and the company’s board. The letter is scheduled to run in a full-page advertisement in Saturday’s Seattle Times.

In a nutshell, the union said many pilots are retiring throughout the industry, while too few are joining the ranks, and Alaska wasn’t taking necessary steps to reverse the trend.

“We are deeply concerned about the future of our airline and the crucial service it provides to communities throughout the Pacific Northwest,” the letter signed by the Horizon Air Pilots Executive Council. “The high cost and lengthy training required to become a pilot have worsened the economics of our profession, making the career all but impossible for many aspiring aviators.”

Despite improved compensation, most aspiring pilots incur large student debts upward of $150,000. It also takes years as a low-wage flight instructor before qualifying for annual pay of $40,000 per year working for airlines such as Horizon, the pilots said. From there, it takes Horizon pilots 18 years to reach the maximum pay grade of $125,000.

Alaska created its own headwind as far back as 2012, said Greg Unterseher, director of representation for Teamsters Local 1224.

“The entire industry was moving one direction to accept pilots, while Alaska Air Group was going another direction,” Unterseher said. “Alaska always believed it would be able to attract pilots.”

Alaska converted all of its Horizon routes to Q-400s several years ago to reduce costs. But competitive factors came into play, and Alaska asked the union for a new contract. But the pilots didn’t flock to Horizon, as management had hoped.

“It was a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face,” Unterseher said.

Horizon management asked pilots to accept pay cuts and other concessions last year to compete with another airline for outsourced routes flying from Alaska Airlines. In return for concessions, Horizon and Alaska Air Group guaranteed the pilots Horizon would become the exclusive operator for more than 30 new regional jets.

“With the ink on the contract barely dry, Horizon became unable to adequately staff and operate the airline — precisely as we had warned,” the pilots wrote. “In effect, Horizon’s attempt to cut costs had backfired; the airline had lower pilot costs, yes, but lower costs also meant that the airline could not recruit and retain scarce pilots.”

Recently, Horizon announced service reductions, deferred aircraft deliveries, and that SkyWest would fly new aircraft on contract for Alaska Airlines, something the pilots said was a flagrant violation of their 2016 agreement.

Horizon pilots said short-term fixes won’t help, and Alaska needs to present a long-term plan. They said it was important to retain senior pilots and develop training for the next generation. The pilots also said Alaska needs to break from corporate orthodoxy that says the market will solve the problem.

“The market is not solving this problem,” they wrote.

Unterseher said community leaders in the Rogue Valley need to ask Alaska about its plan.

“Alaska’s inability to recognize market conditions was shown by Delta’s invasion of Seattle, and then having to make a defensive move and spend well above the market price for Virgin America,” he said.

doug_or

Arooo?!?

I don't have the e-mail anymore, but I thought when they released the positions for arbitration the company's position was "no scope, just trust us" and the union's position was a limit to 76 seats with no max on the number of hulls.