WSPLT

I think Alaska Air Group is the driving force keeping our wages from being competitive with the rest of the industry. They appear to have essentially shot themselves in the foot, and now seem shocked that the pilot group won't take more concessions. They want us to pick up the slack created by their lack of foresight and basic ability to listen to what our union has been telling them for quite some time.

They already want to make changes to our new contract (which had numerous concessions), which hasn't even taken effect yet. And they're wondering why the pilot group isn't interested in giving up our last bit of bargaining power by handing them the ability to raise first year pay as they see fit without giving anything back to the rest of us.

Both FOs and CAs have been bailing for jobs that pay them what they're worth. Upgrades have been bypassed due to lack of FOs to replace them. They're simply not able to attract enough new hires to keep up.

Some bases are better than others, but at PDX, reserves are almost always flying. The seniority list at PDX has shrunk considerably since the summer, but I haven't seen many new names added at the bottom.

DashAviator

I've been on reserve for several years, and I can't ever remember "sitting around". I've heard that SOME of the pilots in SOME of the bases aren't flying much (for example, a few reserve FO's in Anchorage have transferred to Seattle or Spokane to get more hours). I think one of the big problems at Horizon is that our managers haven't figured out where to put the reserves to provide the "best" coverage.

Based on my experience, I'm pretty sure that there has never been a single reserve pilot based in Seattle, ever (sarcasm intended). I'm Portland based and at least 80% of my trips are with Seattle crews. Maybe it would make sense to have the largest group of reserve pilots at the base where we have the most flights? Just a thought.

Packrat

"Thinking weakens the team."

WSPLT

"Up there, you don't have time to think. If you think, you're dead!"

Ashes

Thank you, Sir! May I have another?

Aerotrinamic

Hey so I've been reading through this thread because I got into the pilot development program and already got the money. If everything goes right I will have my hours by summer this year. But I read so many bad things about how the pilots are treated so I'm also considering applying at SKW.

One thing I read was that there are 200-250 lifer captains there. Doesn't seem like much room for upgrades with 500-600 pilots. But they are saying that upgrade time is 2.5 years. So are that many senior FOs leaving?

Another thing I read is that if you got hired onto the 175, you would upgrade into the Q400, which doesn't seem to make sense training wise, do you guys really think there will be that many senior captains going to the E-jet?

During one of the Horizon hiring presentations LaMar mentioned that QX will probably be doing the feed for Virgin, how likely do you see that happening?

I somehow really want to go work for QX but I'm tired of being treated badly as an employee, and I also don't want fall into a trap again where I believe great sounding promises that never become reality...

snackysmores

Sounds like you're all set to be an indentured servant for the next 2 years.

Correct. 90% of our captains are lifers because Horizon used to be a career airline. Over the past decade it's been stripped of its glory and gutted of perks that once made it desirable. We have seen a lot of senior FOs bailing for shorter upgrade elsewhere or to LCCs. If we get enough new hires and actually grow 13 airplanes this year the upgrade time will stay around 2.5-3 years, until we stop growing. Then things will slow way down again. If we did not have 13+ planes coming the upgrade time would be around 4-5 years.

Also correct, and yes you can bet almost every senior captain will bid the 175, even if they have to commute because life is that bad on the Q400. If you don't have previous 121 experience and you start your career on the 175 you are going to have a hell of a time upgrading into the Q400. It can definitely be done, but the airplane is a POS and our standard operating procedures are beyond ridiculous and complicated (our before start checklist alone has 32 items challenge/response, where the jet will have maybe 4-5). You will never be closer to failing a 121 training event for the rest of your entire career by attempting to do 175FO > Q400 CA at Horizon. Many new captains have failed their checkride and already have thousands of hours in the plane.

LaMar also said we would be flying 90-120 seat jets for Alaska right around this time as well. He will literally say anything to get you in the door (because Alaska sure as hell won't give him any tools or help) along with the rest of the company like our VP of Flight Ops B.L. They've been taking new hires out to dinner and blowing smoke right up their a$$es.

You will be treated bad that's certain, however I can say with confidence you will be treated badly almost anywhere you go. It's the regionals. Management could open their eyes one day and realize happy employees can make you a lot of money, but they would rather be hostile, intimidating, and threatening in order to squeeze one last extra drop out of you.

I'd give the money back and go somewhere else before you regret it. Plenty of companies would love to give you a 20k bonus with no strings attached.

amcnd

You need to rember that these senior Captains were flying the CRJ700 and The F28 jet before that.. yes they will go the the E175.. and i agree going for E175 FO with 3-4 years (I wouldn't be surprised if the initial E175 FO's get more then 200hrs a year the first 2 years) in the 121 world would bee a hard transition to Q400 Captain..

WSPLT

What exactly are the terms of the money that they provided for your training? Do you just have to pay it back if you don't come to Horizon?

There are certainly a LOT of senior CAs here at Horizon. Many of them are Portland based. The jets are going to Seattle, so a number of the senior CAs will likely not want to commute there just to fly the jet, as that short little commute can be brutal due to the very high flight loads and number of commuters. That being said, the jet will likely be very senior. The speculation around here among the rank and file is that they will bring new hire FOs into the jet, however they are still talking about keeping the Q400s as the jets come, so they'll have to staff that too.

At the moment, we have a 4 year seat lock which would prevent a lot of FOs from switching to the jet. The ones that could would likely just upgrade in the Q400. Upgrade around here at the moment is at 2.5 years, however I think that also involves a commute to Anchorage if you want the left seat at 2.5 years.

I'm sure there are some FOs leaving, along with CA retirements and people leaving for the majors. I know there have been some recent cases of canceled upgrade classes and people getting bypassed for upgrade due to lack of FOs. We have canceled dozens of flights over the holidays due to lack of flight crews to staff them.

As far as upgrading in the jet, anybody that gives you an answer will be guessing, it's just WAAAY too soon to know how they will handle the jet yet. The general thought however is that most of the CAs here in the Q400, given the opportunity, would jump on the chance to fly the jet. So, the thought is that will make the jet pretty senior in the left seat, so if you wanted to upgrade in a reasonable amount of time, you would have to go to the Q.

Upgrading directly into the left seat of the Q400 from the E175 seems like a recipe trouble to me. As others have said, the Q400 is a complicated, challenging aircraft with many "gotchas," and we fly it into some pretty small airports with short runways and
crap weather. If you went to the Q after being used to making sure things are in AUTO in the E175, you will have trouble with the Q. Not a whole lot of AUTO in the Q.

Bottom line, nobody really knows what's going to happen, with jets, or with feed for Virgin. We are really starting to feel the crunch here, so I really hope that the company will see the light and sweeten the deal here a bit to make us competitive. Something has to give, and soon. Hopefully it has a positive outcome, but only time will tell.

Horizon has been good to me so far, and I do actually like flying the Q400, it requires you to be a pilot rather than just a button masher. Most of the people here are great, and if you want to fly in the Northwest, that's pretty much all we do. It made sense for me and my family, and I have no regrets. Do what's best for you and don't look back.

lowflying

Go somewhere else. Horizon has nothing good to offer that skywest can't give you and Horizon has plenty of bad to offer. The management labor relationship is as toxic as can be; there is a constant steam of bad news and threats coming out on an almost weekly basis and nothing besides horrible trips with crappy overnights ( we have those too) could be more draining on your soul.

On the bright side upgrade time is low and the chances of getting ANC when you upgrade is pretty much zero; Just like Skywest...