So Payne wants a timeline.
01-01-2018, 07:39 AM
#1
The REAL Bluedriver
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
So Payne wants a timeline.
So Payne wants a timeline. Well Payne, the company controls the timeline, and they will not settle a contract that costs them hundreds of millions of dollars and restricts their operations with peer standard work rules until conditions on the ground change or they see a business need to do so.
Right now they get almost everything they want from us pilots at Walmart prices. It doesn't matter that we are awash in cash and have at or near industry leading margins. It doesn't matter that closing this contract is the right or moral thing to do. They will not do it until they are no longer getting almost everything they want from us at the current rates. Or the Union campaign creates a business need to finish it or Wall Street sees a reason.
None of those things are even close to happening right now. There has always been plenty of information available to know that Summer 2017, or Fall 2017, or "surely done by year end 2017" was NEVER going to happen. But that doesn't mean there is enough information to predict when it will get finished and I'm not dumb enough to try.
Our management has been less blatant and more calculating than Spirit or Frontier, but I believe you will see us trending that direction. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong, I'm fully expecting it from you and the other usual suspects.
After all this negotiating in "good faith" that you guys keep telling me about, the company isn't even offering us pay rates "close" to Alaska. And Alaska rates are a non-starter NO to our union and our pilots (maybe not you).
So I suggest you take a second look at how things are going at Spirit and Frontier. As I said, our management will be more calculating and less blatant, but beyond that start understanding there are going to be more similarities than you thought.
Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm just being negative. Tell me I'm not reading the Union emails or talking to my union reps.
I've heard it all before, yet the contract isn't even CLOSE to being done.
Right now they get almost everything they want from us pilots at Walmart prices. It doesn't matter that we are awash in cash and have at or near industry leading margins. It doesn't matter that closing this contract is the right or moral thing to do. They will not do it until they are no longer getting almost everything they want from us at the current rates. Or the Union campaign creates a business need to finish it or Wall Street sees a reason.
None of those things are even close to happening right now. There has always been plenty of information available to know that Summer 2017, or Fall 2017, or "surely done by year end 2017" was NEVER going to happen. But that doesn't mean there is enough information to predict when it will get finished and I'm not dumb enough to try.
Our management has been less blatant and more calculating than Spirit or Frontier, but I believe you will see us trending that direction. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong, I'm fully expecting it from you and the other usual suspects.
After all this negotiating in "good faith" that you guys keep telling me about, the company isn't even offering us pay rates "close" to Alaska. And Alaska rates are a non-starter NO to our union and our pilots (maybe not you).
So I suggest you take a second look at how things are going at Spirit and Frontier. As I said, our management will be more calculating and less blatant, but beyond that start understanding there are going to be more similarities than you thought.
Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm just being negative. Tell me I'm not reading the Union emails or talking to my union reps.
I've heard it all before, yet the contract isn't even CLOSE to being done.
01-01-2018, 07:54 AM
#2
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
Not sure this post is helpful as it is borderline negotiating in public.
It's fair to air grievances and discuss how far behind our peers we are (and it's unfair to try to minimize these shortcomings as a couple guys in particular do here on a constant basis). But I don't think we should be discussing what we are or are not willing to settle for or the fact that some expect management to continue drag their feet.....they'd be happy to oblige.
What does it matter if someone thinks the contract is close or is not close? As long as they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with being in a labor dispute, it's honestly irrelevant. imho.
It's fair to air grievances and discuss how far behind our peers we are (and it's unfair to try to minimize these shortcomings as a couple guys in particular do here on a constant basis). But I don't think we should be discussing what we are or are not willing to settle for or the fact that some expect management to continue drag their feet.....they'd be happy to oblige.
What does it matter if someone thinks the contract is close or is not close? As long as they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with being in a labor dispute, it's honestly irrelevant. imho.
01-01-2018, 08:23 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: CA
Posts: 1,027
Originally Posted by atrdriver
Not sure this post is helpful as it is borderline negotiating in public.
It's fair to air grievances and discuss how far behind our peers we are (and it's unfair to try to minimize these shortcomings as a couple guys in particular do here on a constant basis). But I don't think we should be discussing what we are or are not willing to settle for or the fact that some expect management to continue drag their feet.....they'd be happy to oblige.
What does it matter if someone thinks the contract is close or is not close? As long as they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with being in a labor dispute, it's honestly irrelevant. imho.
It's fair to air grievances and discuss how far behind our peers we are (and it's unfair to try to minimize these shortcomings as a couple guys in particular do here on a constant basis). But I don't think we should be discussing what we are or are not willing to settle for or the fact that some expect management to continue drag their feet.....they'd be happy to oblige.
What does it matter if someone thinks the contract is close or is not close? As long as they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with being in a labor dispute, it's honestly irrelevant. imho.
Bluedriver, what is your point in all this? You've become a broken record.
01-01-2018, 09:34 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 243
So Payne wants a timeline.
I should probably put a disclaimer that this post is in no way of support of the company.
The latest offer the company made was during the 10/31, 11/1, 11/2 mediated session. To quote the union, it was a “step in the right direction” (but was not our definition of market rate). At that time, there was no “Alaska pay.” The Alaska/Virgin arbitration award came out during that mediated session so obviously the company wouldn’t have been prepared to do a proper cost analysis and make an offer even close during that session. There has since yet to be another mediated session. The next one on the books was 1/8 but we all know that’s been cancelled. There have been unmediated sessions, but no way is the company going to make a pay proposal outside of mediation. To quote the union in their last update, “management has not offered Alaska pay or anything close to it.” Well, yea no ****. They haven’t had the chance to.
I’m not saying they will offer anything reasonable next session. I’m not saying they won’t. Do I think we are in a labor dispute? Yes. Has the union correspondence been mostly positive? Yes. Was the last update a significant change in tone? Yes. But I wouldn’t say the sky is falling purely on that one message alone. I will say that we still have a long way to go though... I think the next update after the 1/22-1/26 mediation session will be a huge turning point for us, either good or bad.
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The latest offer the company made was during the 10/31, 11/1, 11/2 mediated session. To quote the union, it was a “step in the right direction” (but was not our definition of market rate). At that time, there was no “Alaska pay.” The Alaska/Virgin arbitration award came out during that mediated session so obviously the company wouldn’t have been prepared to do a proper cost analysis and make an offer even close during that session. There has since yet to be another mediated session. The next one on the books was 1/8 but we all know that’s been cancelled. There have been unmediated sessions, but no way is the company going to make a pay proposal outside of mediation. To quote the union in their last update, “management has not offered Alaska pay or anything close to it.” Well, yea no ****. They haven’t had the chance to.
I’m not saying they will offer anything reasonable next session. I’m not saying they won’t. Do I think we are in a labor dispute? Yes. Has the union correspondence been mostly positive? Yes. Was the last update a significant change in tone? Yes. But I wouldn’t say the sky is falling purely on that one message alone. I will say that we still have a long way to go though... I think the next update after the 1/22-1/26 mediation session will be a huge turning point for us, either good or bad.
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Last edited by captsurf; 01-01-2018 at 09:52 AM.
01-01-2018, 09:52 AM
#6
The REAL Bluedriver
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Captsurf, it makes no difference whether or not the Alaska award was known prior to the last offer.
Delta, United, American and Southwest were all WELL KNOWN at the time they made their offer. Spirit, Frontier and Alaska at the time they made their offer to us were nothing more than BAD-DATA. Spirit and Frontier are VERY old contracts in end-game negotiations subject to change anytime. Alaska's contract is also not entirely modern and was under Arbitration, so still not a good data-point.
The current contracts of DL, UAL, AA and SWA are where the market is today for Airbus pilots. It was well know to JB management and yet they still offered us rates well short of Alaska's arbitration award.
We are far apart.
Delta, United, American and Southwest were all WELL KNOWN at the time they made their offer. Spirit, Frontier and Alaska at the time they made their offer to us were nothing more than BAD-DATA. Spirit and Frontier are VERY old contracts in end-game negotiations subject to change anytime. Alaska's contract is also not entirely modern and was under Arbitration, so still not a good data-point.
The current contracts of DL, UAL, AA and SWA are where the market is today for Airbus pilots. It was well know to JB management and yet they still offered us rates well short of Alaska's arbitration award.
We are far apart.
01-01-2018, 10:05 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 243
So Payne wants a timeline.
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
Captsurf, it makes no difference whether or not the Alaska award was known prior to the last offer.
Delta, United, American and Southwest were all WELL KNOWN at the time they made their offer. Spirit, Frontier and Alaska at the time they made their offer to us were nothing more than BAD-DATA. Spirit and Frontier are VERY old contracts in end-game negotiations subject to change anytime. Alaska's contract is also not entirely modern and was under Arbitration, so still not a good data-point.
The current contracts of DL, UAL, AA and SWA are where the market is today for Airbus pilots. It was well know to JB management and yet they still offered us rates well short of Alaska's arbitration award.
We are far apart.
Delta, United, American and Southwest were all WELL KNOWN at the time they made their offer. Spirit, Frontier and Alaska at the time they made their offer to us were nothing more than BAD-DATA. Spirit and Frontier are VERY old contracts in end-game negotiations subject to change anytime. Alaska's contract is also not entirely modern and was under Arbitration, so still not a good data-point.
The current contracts of DL, UAL, AA and SWA are where the market is today for Airbus pilots. It was well know to JB management and yet they still offered us rates well short of Alaska's arbitration award.
We are far apart.
Hey man I completely agree. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Frontier/Spirit are outliers. Alls I was saying was that up until that point, the company’s definition of “market rate” was much different than it is now. But therein lies the problem, how far apart the two “market rates” are.
All I was saying was this:
10/31 -Mediated session. Company makes better but still low-ball offer
10/31- Alaska/Virgin award
11/2- Negotiations update email. Everyone says “alright. Not great but a step in the right direction. Let’s see if they at least come up to Alaska next time.”
(No more sessions)
12/27- Negotiations update email. Everyone says “omg! They won’t even offer Alaska! Time to burn it down!”
I think the last email helped to bring the hopefuls back down to the reality that we still have along tough road ahead.
I’m just basing my thoughts on progress on the latest update (11/2) following the latest session. Like I said, end of January will be a crucial turning point. But in my eyes, time for the company to nut up or shut up.
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