AIP.
05-25-2018 | 01:25 PM
#531
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,174
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Most of the guys I’ve talked to are “no.” This includes juicers, unionoids, 3 different instructors (who said their circles are all hard no), and a smattering of CAs/FOs of various seniority. I think once the unacceptable negatives are all fully identified from the language, even more people will be on the “no” train. If amazing rates existed, people would look beyond the gives (OE, vacation allocation, PS, SB, etc) to vote those in. But the rates aren’t there to do that, neither is PS or, more shockingly, SB.
One friend who is a “yes” is a first airline guy, just happy to be here, making more in year 2 than he ever did in his past life, and doesn’t know how negotiations/contract cycles work. Thinks a 4 year amendable date means we get a new contract in 4 years. Doesn’t realize it can drag out forever. Just happy to get a raise. The others are new guys who don’t know JetBlue’s history, have never been major airline pilots so they don’t quite know their self-worth as one, and see $53 vs $86 an hour upon ratification. They also think that it’s been 3 years since we started, so it’ll take another year or 2 and it isn’t worth it to wait.
Even on bluepilots, a guy laid out his case why he was a yes voter. After some reflection, and 14 pages of discussion, he changed his mind. The longer this turd is out there and the bullet points analyzed and compared to peers, the more and more evident it is that it’s a turd. Maybe the language will be surprisingly good, but I don’t think language will turn some of these negatives around. Hopefully the MEC has the same standards and uses the same level of scrutiny as the pilots they represent in their vote to send it to us. I’d rather it not even make it to the pilot group, but I now believe this thing won’t pass if it does. Would have last year. Not now.
One friend who is a “yes” is a first airline guy, just happy to be here, making more in year 2 than he ever did in his past life, and doesn’t know how negotiations/contract cycles work. Thinks a 4 year amendable date means we get a new contract in 4 years. Doesn’t realize it can drag out forever. Just happy to get a raise. The others are new guys who don’t know JetBlue’s history, have never been major airline pilots so they don’t quite know their self-worth as one, and see $53 vs $86 an hour upon ratification. They also think that it’s been 3 years since we started, so it’ll take another year or 2 and it isn’t worth it to wait.
Even on bluepilots, a guy laid out his case why he was a yes voter. After some reflection, and 14 pages of discussion, he changed his mind. The longer this turd is out there and the bullet points analyzed and compared to peers, the more and more evident it is that it’s a turd. Maybe the language will be surprisingly good, but I don’t think language will turn some of these negatives around. Hopefully the MEC has the same standards and uses the same level of scrutiny as the pilots they represent in their vote to send it to us. I’d rather it not even make it to the pilot group, but I now believe this thing won’t pass if it does. Would have last year. Not now.
I wish I shared your optimism. I've seen Lucy hold the football for me way too often with this pilot group to give trying to kick it another shot.
The problem I have with this is that we've blown our greatest leverage. By the time it gets to the pilots for a vote, even if it DOES get voted down (highly unlikely), we're more than 2/3 of the way through summer and JB gets to skate into September as we try and spin back up our SOP campaign with our union leadership and overall direction in disarray.
We had the greatest amount of leverage we'll ever have with these negotiations in May...summer on the horizon. Another picket a week away. Investors downgrading JB. An ever increasingly galvanized pilot group. And we ****ed it all away.
05-25-2018 | 01:26 PM
#532
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,088
Likes: 12
I would be pretty shocked if after the final language is released and all road shows are completed if this thing doesn't pass. Just like the 2016 Election, the hidden vote will get this thing ratified. Most of the people I talk to are leaning yes, but are waiting for the final language to make up their minds.
05-25-2018 | 02:06 PM
#533
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,047
Likes: 0
From: B6
And this bolded statement sums up the JB pilot group perfectly. "Hey...it's not what I wanted, but golly gee whiz..it's better than it was before."
This group is doomed. I had hoped JB MEC and NC would save us from ourselves because there's no way this sh1tbag of a AIP doesn't pass the sheep in blue...
F this place.
This group is doomed. I had hoped JB MEC and NC would save us from ourselves because there's no way this sh1tbag of a AIP doesn't pass the sheep in blue...
F this place.
We all hide (except for a couple of us some involuntarily) behind the keyboard thinking this affects change. I know for sure that many on here don't go to your union meetings.
You have one vote you should use it the way you want. I urge all to print their vote so you you can't hide behind that like you do here.
05-25-2018 | 02:21 PM
#534
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
I hear what you are saying and for the most part I agree with you.
BUT - You can’t pattern bargain based on a pattern that hasn’t been established yet.
So the arguments that DL, UA, SW, AA will all “negotiate higher wages” in their upcoming Section 6, “so we need to stay ahead or we will fall behind” is an absolutely ludicrous stance.
You negotiate on precedent, not speculation.
Regardless, these rates are lacking. No doubt about that. I’m not arguing that the COLAs at SW and the 3 will widen the disparity of our AIP rates as time passes. Personally I would have liked to see us keep pace with SWA and have penal post-amendable kickers of 3-4%, but that’s not what the arbitrator deemed fair.
BUT - You can’t pattern bargain based on a pattern that hasn’t been established yet.
So the arguments that DL, UA, SW, AA will all “negotiate higher wages” in their upcoming Section 6, “so we need to stay ahead or we will fall behind” is an absolutely ludicrous stance.
You negotiate on precedent, not speculation.
Regardless, these rates are lacking. No doubt about that. I’m not arguing that the COLAs at SW and the 3 will widen the disparity of our AIP rates as time passes. Personally I would have liked to see us keep pace with SWA and have penal post-amendable kickers of 3-4%, but that’s not what the arbitrator deemed fair.
05-25-2018 | 03:57 PM
#535
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
From: fifi whisperer
Lets all read the contract line by line and ask the hard questions. I hope and pray the final language is as good as the Union thinks it is.
For now, I'm going to simply do what the union asked in this afternoon's email and sit tight until the final language is released.
05-25-2018 | 04:04 PM
#536
Covfefe
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Likes: 0
I agree 100% with this statement.
Lets all read the contract line by line and ask the hard questions. I hope and pray the final language is as good as the Union thinks it is.
For now, I'm going to simply do what the union asked in this afternoon's email and sit tight until the final language is released.
Lets all read the contract line by line and ask the hard questions. I hope and pray the final language is as good as the Union thinks it is.
For now, I'm going to simply do what the union asked in this afternoon's email and sit tight until the final language is released.
05-25-2018 | 04:49 PM
#537
New Hire
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Im yes vote and there are alot out there. Yes voters we need to stand up too these cuck greedy baby bommers that have less then five years to go i have 30. This ant aa ul sw .Stand up to these anti capitalist we need to make our corporations strong
05-25-2018 | 04:52 PM
#538
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,150
Likes: 0
From: Left,Right, Left, Right,Right,Left, Right, Left
...no idea what this means.
05-25-2018 | 04:54 PM
#539
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 27
Santiago? Is that you?
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