jamesholzhauer

Well, B6ALPA included spirit as a peer in the contract comparison guide, as does the board of directors for executive compensation. I get it, they aren’t exactly a peer by product, business model, etc. But neither is Hawaiian. And largely neither is SWA. Each has a unique business model (besides the legacies which are all the same model), with unique bases, varying levels of onboard product, varying destinations, often varying and differing clientele, and varying, often limited overlap in markets. You could differentiate every airline from each other depending on the metric used. But we most definitely compete with NK and SWA in Florida. Does that make them our peer? Maybe, maybe not. We draw from the same pool of applicants. We fly the same planes in a lot of the same markets. Execs use them as a peer for their comp. ALPA used them for comparisons for our CBA, so it’s hard to dismiss them as “not a peer.”

That said, could the origins of them being entered into our “peer group” be for expectation management by the firm, or even by ALPA? Absolutely.

CaptCoolHand

Yea, anyone who lives in florida should definitely not apply.

nuball5

Couldn’t have said it any better. Even the product differences between the two are getting blurred. Unreliable LiveTV’s and Wifi, catering is a joke, our 190 interiors look worse than Spirit (and aren’t going anywhere fast) and who knows what condition these A321s from Thomas Cook will be in before Jetblue decides to refurbish them.

I add one other airline that I think should be included as a peer who in several ways are alike....included with all the other big players, and it’s seen as “strategic malpractice.”

RiddleEagle18

This right here! The union needs to be focused on educating the pilot group on who we are prior to the next round of negotiations. Last round we were Alaska and I expected the arbitrator to push something similar.(I think our negotiators actually hit well above Alaska when you compare the entire contract)

However, by the time we are in negotiations for our next CBA We will be flying 757 sized aircraft from cities like Lima, Bogota, LA and SFO, London, Amsterdam and probably France. I wouldn’t put Hawaii out of the mix either and probably Brazil.

Point being we are quickly becoming closer to a legacy type model airline than we are Alaska, SWA or Spirit. We need to be refocusing our sights higher. The argument needs to be made to the pilot group and to the arbitrator that we have shifted into a higher category.


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Roy Biggins

I agree 100 with all of this

jamesholzhauer

Perhaps the union needs to teach people the difference between an arbitrator and a mediator? Hint: we didn’t have an arbitrator. Oh, and they did explain that in many emails.

I’d recommend talking to your rep or a P2P guy about your concerns about who our peer group is, and certainly the negotiating committee once they are up and running.

And we aren’t and won’t be flying 757s. We are flying a variant of an A321. Different planes, different pay scales. You get what you negotiate. We will see what everyone else with XLRs negotiates. If it’s 757 rates, great. If not, it’s hard to negotiate 757 rates when everyone else has a321 or separate LR/XLR rates.

RiddleEagle18

Got me... but you knew what I meant.

I said 757 sized. Will they not be completing the same mission as legacy 757’s?


And no the union has not done a great job educating this pilot group. I actually consider it one of their biggest failures. We have a group of misfits without a lot of union experience, and they desperately need education.

The retirement and insurance group is doing a great job recently though!

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HighFlight

There's this tiny little place which few know about. It's called South Florida.

Bluedriver

James and Nuball, why not Frontier then?

Spirit was added, unilaterally if my memory serves me, to our peerset by management in the last PEA pay review.

After that was added and upon discussions with management for this CBA, I wouldn't be surprised if management had made it clear they were keeping Spirit in the peerset for negotiations.

JBALPA most likely kept Spirit in the comparison guide on that basis, but obviously could be wrong.

But to be perfectly honest, I don't know a single pilot that has been entirely satisfied with JBALPA during the last negotiations, or since. The strategy, the comms, almost everything has been fairly meek and timid. So no, I'm not surprised they didn't fight to keep Spirit out.

Now talking strategy for right now, Spirit is, in-fact, well behind JB. I can understand why management would want to have them included in the peerset, but it baffles me entirely why JB pilots would continue to argue that they should be. Posturing and strategy argues pilots fight for the most advantageous peerset possible, and management WILL argue for the cheapest peerset. No pilot should be doing that job for them.

As for Spirit being a management peer, Spirit management may VERY WELL pay themselves at or even above peer average.... That is NOT true of Spirit pilots. Think about that.

Just my opinion.

727_Driver

Because no one better called them.


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