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Old 06-24-2019, 04:53 PM
  #111  
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I agree with everything you said James. But I think his point was that many of the companies that have some of the best PS now, Had that PS negotiated during a BK. That also included a furlough. There is no correlation for current times.

Maybe if we’d have voted it down we’d have gotten better PS? Maybe better signing bonus? Maybe if we had voted in JBPA back in 2009 we’d be in a better position? Maybe if we’d have voted in ALPA 1.0 we’d be in a better spot.
We got what we got when we got it.

Ya know it sucks we couldn’t get it all in the first run. We asked they said no....
We’ll get em next time...
Frankly I’m a hardline union supporter.
But this is a marathon. Not a sprint. And it’s certainly not a one shot one kill deal. I don’t think you’ll find many guys who think it shouldn’t be better. They’re out there. But there’s not many. But Rome wasn’t built in a day and we’ve got a long row to hoe.
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:20 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand View Post
I agree with everything you said James. But I think his point was that many of the companies that have some of the best PS now, Had that PS negotiated during a BK. That also included a furlough. There is no correlation for current times.

Maybe if we’d have voted it down we’d have gotten better PS? Maybe better signing bonus? Maybe if we had voted in JBPA back in 2009 we’d be in a better position? Maybe if we’d have voted in ALPA 1.0 we’d be in a better spot.
We got what we got when we got it.

Ya know it sucks we couldn’t get it all in the first run. We asked they said no....
We’ll get em next time...
Frankly I’m a hardline union supporter.
But this is a marathon. Not a sprint. And it’s certainly not a one shot one kill deal. I don’t think you’ll find many guys who think it shouldn’t be better. They’re out there. But there’s not many. But Rome wasn’t built in a day and we’ve got a long row to hoe.
I mostly agree. I just don’t see HB’s position being what you described...if that’s what he meant then fine, it was just poorly worded imo. I also don’t agree with the notion that good PS has to be negotiated in BK or during a furlough, or any other hard times, as PS is directly tied to the current financial state of the company. Doesn’t even require a concessionary contract to pay $0 in PS in the bad times. That said, I’m also a rates over PS kind of guy (for that reason). But I think from an operational standpoint PS would help the company (fuel burn/efficiency) and help the abomination that mgmt/labor relations has become. It was a shortsighted money grab by the c suite to pay for the CBA while getting murdered by Wall Street. Lastly, I do hope JB pilots do get them next time and get a much better CBA, with PS, in 2022.
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:48 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand View Post
I agree with everything you said James. But I think his point was that many of the companies that have some of the best PS now, Had that PS negotiated during a BK. That also included a furlough. There is no correlation for current times.

Maybe if we’d have voted it down we’d have gotten better PS? Maybe better signing bonus? Maybe if we had voted in JBPA back in 2009 we’d be in a better position? Maybe if we’d have voted in ALPA 1.0 we’d be in a better spot.
We got what we got when we got it.

Ya know it sucks we couldn’t get it all in the first run. We asked they said no....
We’ll get em next time...
Frankly I’m a hardline union supporter.
But this is a marathon. Not a sprint. And it’s certainly not a one shot one kill deal. I don’t think you’ll find many guys who think it shouldn’t be better. They’re out there. But there’s not many. But Rome wasn’t built in a day and we’ve got a long row to hoe.
I know I am way junior to many of you who post here, and get derided for my easy-going attitude, but I have not talked to one single pilot, in either seat, who thinks we got a good deal. Not one who thought we could have done better. But I have talked to a bunch who wanted SOMETHING concrete from which to work and move forward with. A contract that could be enforced.

Those who whine about "next time" seem to think that we should have stuck to our guns and demanded more. But the attorneys who have been negotiating contracts longer than many of us have been flying for JB said that the gains in a delay would have been minimal. And it seems 3/4 of the pilots agreed with them.

We are WAY past the point of arguing the merits of CBA 1.0. It is DUN, done. Can we focus on the path ahead? How to improve the CBA, what we want to see for the next round of negotiations?

It may be fun to point out how bad our CBA sucks (for some people), but the reality is that it DOESN'T suck all that much, even according to our 19 year CAs. But it CAN be better, and we need to work towards that. Attacking one another on APC does zero towards achieving a CBA #2 that will improve our QOL.

Edit: This wasn't directed at CoolHand. Just a general observation.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:21 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand View Post
Profits do not cause furloughs...
Not at all.
And i think you know that’s not what he’s saying.

Delta. The “gold standard” of PS has a profit sharing model that was negotiated in BK. During a time of many furloughs. They were able to maintain that PS in the last round of negotiations due to a no vote and renegotiation.

Times are different. Companies are different. We could have voted no until we got every single thing we wanted. Every one. We’d never leave negotiations.
And JB took away our "better" profit sharing formula during GOOD times. And AA management, just a few years ago, and while not in negotiations, gave their employees/pilots a much better profit sharing plan. Again, during good times.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:34 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by 360KIAS View Post
I know I am way junior to many of you who post here, and get derided for my easy-going attitude, but I have not talked to one single pilot, in either seat, who thinks we got a good deal.

You're not derided for an "easy-going attitude," you're "derided" for sounding like a management hack arguing we are plenty well off and shouldn't complain because we have a higher standard of living than someone living in a hut in Africa

Not one who thought we could have done better. But I have talked to a bunch who wanted SOMETHING concrete from which to work and move forward with. A contract that could be enforced.

Those who whine about "next time" seem to think that we should have stuck to our guns and demanded more. But the attorneys who have been negotiating contracts longer than many of us have been flying for JB said that the gains in a delay would have been minimal. And it seems 3/4 of the pilots agreed with them.

We are WAY past the point of arguing the merits of CBA 1.0. It is DUN, done. Can we focus on the path ahead? How to improve the CBA, what we want to see for the next round of negotiations?

It may be fun to point out how bad our CBA sucks (for some people), but the reality is that it DOESN'T suck all that much, even according to our 19 year CAs. But it CAN be better, and we need to work towards that. Attacking one another on APC does zero towards achieving a CBA #2 that will improve our QOL.

If we don't point out the parts of the CBA that suck, we will have a harder time getting them fixed next time around. It's not about complaining to complain, it's to maybe give people who sound like management hacks a wakeup call that not everything is sunshine and rainbows.

Edit: This wasn't directed at CoolHand. Just a general observation.
..........
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Old 06-24-2019, 07:08 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand View Post
Profits do not cause furloughs...
Not at all.
And i think you know that’s not what he’s saying.

Delta. The “gold standard” of PS has a profit sharing model that was negotiated in BK. During a time of many furloughs. They were able to maintain that PS in the last round of negotiations due to a no vote and renegotiation.

Times are different. Companies are different. We could have voted no until we got every single thing we wanted. Every one. We’d never leave negotiations.
DALPA profit sharing was negotiated in BK ... and it went up or down?

You and the MEC implied it went up. But it went down to its current form and then preserved thanks to the no vote and subsequent agreement ratification.
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Old 06-24-2019, 08:00 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by disenchantMINT View Post
..........
Except I never said that. Your BFF BlueDriver did. Put blame where it is best served, not where you wish it could be.

My message to him was that he COULD be happy with his station in life, if only he tried. But he refuses, and I have far too much to do to help guide him further. He can try to make fun of me all he wants to make himself feel better, but it doesn't affect me. I am happy with my life.

Our CBA can get better, and I certainly hope it does. But b1tching about it on APC resolves nothing. Those who do so are the minority in this company, and only have (somewhat of) a voice here on APC and BP. Not saying that all the opinions posted are whining, but some are. Yours and BD are at the forefront, though you probably don't want to hear that. Fighting for a better CBA is a good thing. Trying to put people down and demean them because they are more satisfied with their lives than you is a bad thing.

For the record, and much to the discredit of BDs psychic abilities, I am not a management hack. I am just a poor FO who happens to enjoy flying here, and I refuse to be miserable because some anonymous poster on APC tells me this job sucks. I've worked jobs that suck, and this isn't one of them.
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Old 06-25-2019, 01:07 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by 360KIAS View Post
Except I never said that. Your BFF BlueDriver did. Put blame where it is best served, not where you wish it could be.

My message to him was that he COULD be happy with his station in life, if only he tried. But he refuses, and I have far too much to do to help guide him further. He can try to make fun of me all he wants to make himself feel better, but it doesn't affect me. I am happy with my life.

Our CBA can get better, and I certainly hope it does. But b1tching about it on APC resolves nothing. Those who do so are the minority in this company, and only have (somewhat of) a voice here on APC and BP. Not saying that all the opinions posted are whining, but some are. Yours and BD are at the forefront, though you probably don't want to hear that. Fighting for a better CBA is a good thing. Trying to put people down and demean them because they are more satisfied with their lives than you is a bad thing.

For the record, and much to the discredit of BDs psychic abilities, I am not a management hack. I am just a poor FO who happens to enjoy flying here, and I refuse to be miserable because some anonymous poster on APC tells me this job sucks. I've worked jobs that suck, and this isn't one of them.
Wow, you really stepped in it again.

Which doesn't surprise me coming from a guy who thinks our compensation peers are people who think a high end wall-oven is a fire pit on top of a boulder in Somalia.

Anyone who really knows me would laugh, out loud, at the suggestion that I am unhappy in life.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:02 AM
  #119  
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how far west does the e190 go? Chicago? Dallas? or does it make it all the way to Minneapolis?
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:11 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by dontsurf View Post
how far west does the e190 go? Chicago? Dallas? or does it make it all the way to Minneapolis?
DFW and AUS is as far west it goes. MSP as well during winter/off peak times.
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