Premium Pay
04-26-2005, 06:02 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Premium Pay
Time-and-a-half over 70.
Sounds great, right?
We all know however, that the money for premium pay comes from the zero to 70 pay.
We didn't start with healthy base pay rates and then say, "hell, let's give 'em time-and-a-half over 70!"
So....
An airbus captain making 80 or more per month (every single month) is making close to what they intended as our industry comparison baseline.
If you are not making that - you are subsidizing everyone over that mark - plain and simple.
The immediate retort from our friends who easily pull down 90 hours is - why don't you work more?
No explanation needed.
Those of you reading this that are banging your heads against the premium pay wall don't need to explain yourselves.
You just need more base pay.
And the place to get it without any effect on the balance sheet is from premium pay.
Just my opinion (and that of hundreds)....
-R
Sounds great, right?
We all know however, that the money for premium pay comes from the zero to 70 pay.
We didn't start with healthy base pay rates and then say, "hell, let's give 'em time-and-a-half over 70!"
So....
An airbus captain making 80 or more per month (every single month) is making close to what they intended as our industry comparison baseline.
If you are not making that - you are subsidizing everyone over that mark - plain and simple.
The immediate retort from our friends who easily pull down 90 hours is - why don't you work more?
No explanation needed.
Those of you reading this that are banging your heads against the premium pay wall don't need to explain yourselves.
You just need more base pay.
And the place to get it without any effect on the balance sheet is from premium pay.
Just my opinion (and that of hundreds)....
-R
04-26-2005, 06:32 AM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Here's something to ponder when we talk about premium pay:
Annual Income - 4th Year 320 Captains
70 Hours 90 Hours Difference
NWA
$141,960 $182,520 28%
UAL
$ 99,960 $128,520 28%
Frontier
$107,520 $138,240 28%
AWA
$102,480 $131,760 28%
JBLU
$ 99,179 $141,684 43%
Take a very powerful pref bidding tool and put in the hands of a few people who don't think that each pilot at this airline is necessarily deserving of a good line (like the "slackers" in LGB) and you get the Have's and the Have-Not's.
Regardless of the line leveling that's going on right now, it's going to take longer and longer for a pilot to get a line and to upgrade and to get out of the 80 hour range. Which means that if you want the brass ring you have to spend fewer days with your family, work more red eyes and basically bust your ass. In the mean time, you're subsidizing the over 80 crowd. Bust your ass for ten years and you're going to get pretty tired of it. These old bodies weren't meant to do what we do to them (but the AMP is going to fix that). What I'm saying is - people are going to burn out trying to achieve premium pay because there is such a tremendous disincentive to fly less.
In another year, it might be 2 years on reserve followed by 2 years at 75 hours and so on. That means 4 years after upgrade to even get the chance to bust your ass to eek out that 80 hours.
In my opinion - this pay system was a give-away to our founding pilots who coincidentally run the optimizer.
They cleaned up on their stock options - fine. I won't say a word.
BUT I WANT MY BASE PAY BACK! - now there's a good bag sticker.
Actually, there's a simple way to fix this. Look at Frontier pay. If their 90 hour captains are making $138,000 per year - close to our $141,684 - then it should follow that a pilot stuck at 75 hours at jetBlue should make something greater than $107,520 that a Frontier 70 hour pilot makes. Maybe something like $115,200.
Guys and Girls! A 75 hour captain at jetBlue is getting ripped off to the tune of around $10,000 per year.
Let's tell them about it on the survey this year!
Annual Income - 4th Year 320 Captains
70 Hours 90 Hours Difference
NWA
$141,960 $182,520 28%
UAL
$ 99,960 $128,520 28%
Frontier
$107,520 $138,240 28%
AWA
$102,480 $131,760 28%
JBLU
$ 99,179 $141,684 43%
Take a very powerful pref bidding tool and put in the hands of a few people who don't think that each pilot at this airline is necessarily deserving of a good line (like the "slackers" in LGB) and you get the Have's and the Have-Not's.
Regardless of the line leveling that's going on right now, it's going to take longer and longer for a pilot to get a line and to upgrade and to get out of the 80 hour range. Which means that if you want the brass ring you have to spend fewer days with your family, work more red eyes and basically bust your ass. In the mean time, you're subsidizing the over 80 crowd. Bust your ass for ten years and you're going to get pretty tired of it. These old bodies weren't meant to do what we do to them (but the AMP is going to fix that). What I'm saying is - people are going to burn out trying to achieve premium pay because there is such a tremendous disincentive to fly less.
In another year, it might be 2 years on reserve followed by 2 years at 75 hours and so on. That means 4 years after upgrade to even get the chance to bust your ass to eek out that 80 hours.
In my opinion - this pay system was a give-away to our founding pilots who coincidentally run the optimizer.
They cleaned up on their stock options - fine. I won't say a word.
BUT I WANT MY BASE PAY BACK! - now there's a good bag sticker.
Actually, there's a simple way to fix this. Look at Frontier pay. If their 90 hour captains are making $138,000 per year - close to our $141,684 - then it should follow that a pilot stuck at 75 hours at jetBlue should make something greater than $107,520 that a Frontier 70 hour pilot makes. Maybe something like $115,200.
Guys and Girls! A 75 hour captain at jetBlue is getting ripped off to the tune of around $10,000 per year.
Let's tell them about it on the survey this year!
04-26-2005, 06:44 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
When we say performance what do we mean?
Is performance 10 redeyes a month? Is performance missing every weekend with your family for the next 6 years? Is performance deadheading to JFK to fly an airplane OAK to LGB and just squeeking in at 15:55 of duty? Is performance taking 12 days off because that's what you have to do to reach the 80 hour "average" mark? Is performance being released from reserve at 5:00 am so you can fly a redeye that night?
or
Is performance flying single day trips on bankers hours with 18 days off?
What I am asking is: do senior pilots contribute $38,000 per year more to this company than the reserve who's being asked to turn his sleep clock on and off like a machine?
Of course, you should be paid more for flying 90 hours but we're not talking about a shallow curve of 28% here. We're talking about 43%! Nobody else does this and there's a good reason why. Several thousand pilots are not going to put up with that kind of disparity for very long. But we're young and naïve.
If 80 hours is the assumed point where we hit average then the pilot who's stuck on reserve or the pilot who's being line capped is being punished with very real dollars - or - the pilot killing himself to fly red eyes month after month who decides to take a break and fly day trips will be punished for his efforts. Is it fair that when we throttle back for our own well-being or for family reasons, that our pay should fall off so precipitously?
Most of our pilots from 100 and up are always going to defend a system where the junior pilots are paid less than industry average to subsidize a salary at the top that is higher than industry average. Most of the middle 300 captains will be a mixed group depending upon who's burnt out. The bottom 100 captains would more than likely support a change to this system. Certainly, if you're an FO at jetBlue you would be misguided to support a system that may be many years from paying you $120,000 annually and this interval is only going to get longer - and - when you do scratch your way to 320 Captain making 85 hours - how long till YOU burn out. Will it cost you your marriage or your family? Will you spend all of your time either working or recovering from work - using those proven AMP techniques?
It would be interesting to put this to a vote sometime down the road.
This system will not stand indefinitely. Nobody can realistically say that, ten years from now, this system isn't gone. Because by then it will seem so unfair that the outcry will be undeniable. Let's get it changed sooner rather than later.
Is performance 10 redeyes a month? Is performance missing every weekend with your family for the next 6 years? Is performance deadheading to JFK to fly an airplane OAK to LGB and just squeeking in at 15:55 of duty? Is performance taking 12 days off because that's what you have to do to reach the 80 hour "average" mark? Is performance being released from reserve at 5:00 am so you can fly a redeye that night?
or
Is performance flying single day trips on bankers hours with 18 days off?
What I am asking is: do senior pilots contribute $38,000 per year more to this company than the reserve who's being asked to turn his sleep clock on and off like a machine?
Of course, you should be paid more for flying 90 hours but we're not talking about a shallow curve of 28% here. We're talking about 43%! Nobody else does this and there's a good reason why. Several thousand pilots are not going to put up with that kind of disparity for very long. But we're young and naïve.
If 80 hours is the assumed point where we hit average then the pilot who's stuck on reserve or the pilot who's being line capped is being punished with very real dollars - or - the pilot killing himself to fly red eyes month after month who decides to take a break and fly day trips will be punished for his efforts. Is it fair that when we throttle back for our own well-being or for family reasons, that our pay should fall off so precipitously?
Most of our pilots from 100 and up are always going to defend a system where the junior pilots are paid less than industry average to subsidize a salary at the top that is higher than industry average. Most of the middle 300 captains will be a mixed group depending upon who's burnt out. The bottom 100 captains would more than likely support a change to this system. Certainly, if you're an FO at jetBlue you would be misguided to support a system that may be many years from paying you $120,000 annually and this interval is only going to get longer - and - when you do scratch your way to 320 Captain making 85 hours - how long till YOU burn out. Will it cost you your marriage or your family? Will you spend all of your time either working or recovering from work - using those proven AMP techniques?
It would be interesting to put this to a vote sometime down the road.
This system will not stand indefinitely. Nobody can realistically say that, ten years from now, this system isn't gone. Because by then it will seem so unfair that the outcry will be undeniable. Let's get it changed sooner rather than later.
Last edited by Realistic; 04-26-2005 at 06:47 AM.
04-27-2005, 09:23 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
I just realized something....
If committee members and management pilots all get 5 to 20 hours of extra premium pay - they won't want to change a thng about this system.
So who represents the pilots who just fly airplanes?is there anybody in there that would fight to make the system fair?
If committee members and management pilots all get 5 to 20 hours of extra premium pay - they won't want to change a thng about this system.
So who represents the pilots who just fly airplanes?is there anybody in there that would fight to make the system fair?
04-29-2005, 08:10 AM
#6
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Posts: n/a
I agree with a lot of what you guys say. Base pay needs to come up. Schedules need to be evened out. The system worked for the first four years but as the time at the bottom becomes longer the more unequitable things become.
However your suggestions to fix the problems are not "realistic". Give back stock options? Come on man. Even with a 20% raise It would take me 10 years to make the money back. And thats if the stock does not go up. Take away Premium pay? I would think your attitude would be: at least someone can make money here. The idea of premium pay is that if the stuff hits the fan everyones job can be saved by making all 70 hour lines. Hence the no furlough clause in your contract. What other airline would have the senior people take the hit to save the junior people? Just because I may be senior to you, you think I don't give a rats ass. Stop pointing fingers and figure out a better way without alienating everyone. Especially those that can help. And just because I made a conscious decision to come here before the IPO well... don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Seeya
However your suggestions to fix the problems are not "realistic". Give back stock options? Come on man. Even with a 20% raise It would take me 10 years to make the money back. And thats if the stock does not go up. Take away Premium pay? I would think your attitude would be: at least someone can make money here. The idea of premium pay is that if the stuff hits the fan everyones job can be saved by making all 70 hour lines. Hence the no furlough clause in your contract. What other airline would have the senior people take the hit to save the junior people? Just because I may be senior to you, you think I don't give a rats ass. Stop pointing fingers and figure out a better way without alienating everyone. Especially those that can help. And just because I made a conscious decision to come here before the IPO well... don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Seeya
04-29-2005, 06:09 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kinetic,
I'm not pointing a finger and I don't hate ANYONE. I'm simply pointing out a system that I believe is unfair. I didn't say you set it up.
Do you think it's fair that I make $5400 less per year that a 75 hour Frontier Captain while you make $3450 more per year than a Frontier 90 hour Captain?
I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I'm just pointing out a very disturbing disparity.
How does premium pay insure furlough protection? Lines can be flexed down to 70 hours or 60 hours for that matter any time they want. With a blended pay rate it would be a wash.
If you're saying that we all need a raise then I agree. But a raise across the board does not erase the disparity of 43% that is unique to jetBlue. And...
isn't jetBlue more reluctant to grant a raise when they use 85 hours as an industry comparison. Those of us who are stuck at 75 are left out of comparisons, and those of us who are stuck at 75 are getting rooked.
This is only pilot-against-pilot it YOU choose to make it so. I think the SYSTEM sucks. We all deserve to make money but what's wrong with the tried and true straight time system? A conspiracy theorist would argue that this is what they intended all along. That pilot's would take sides over a pay system that they invented to do just such a thing.
With regard to stock options. I was only suggesting that I was willing to give back MY stock options for a raise. It was really more sarcastic than anything else as I know that many here are very happy with their returns each year.
Since mine are worthless, and may always be, I thought they might be worth something in a buy-back. Another topic which could pit pilot-against-pilot.
I agree that we should stick together. Maybe scheduling and staffing monkey-business is a better topic for unity.
Regards,
-R
I'm not pointing a finger and I don't hate ANYONE. I'm simply pointing out a system that I believe is unfair. I didn't say you set it up.
Do you think it's fair that I make $5400 less per year that a 75 hour Frontier Captain while you make $3450 more per year than a Frontier 90 hour Captain?
I'm not accusing YOU of anything. I'm just pointing out a very disturbing disparity.
How does premium pay insure furlough protection? Lines can be flexed down to 70 hours or 60 hours for that matter any time they want. With a blended pay rate it would be a wash.
If you're saying that we all need a raise then I agree. But a raise across the board does not erase the disparity of 43% that is unique to jetBlue. And...
isn't jetBlue more reluctant to grant a raise when they use 85 hours as an industry comparison. Those of us who are stuck at 75 are left out of comparisons, and those of us who are stuck at 75 are getting rooked.
This is only pilot-against-pilot it YOU choose to make it so. I think the SYSTEM sucks. We all deserve to make money but what's wrong with the tried and true straight time system? A conspiracy theorist would argue that this is what they intended all along. That pilot's would take sides over a pay system that they invented to do just such a thing.
With regard to stock options. I was only suggesting that I was willing to give back MY stock options for a raise. It was really more sarcastic than anything else as I know that many here are very happy with their returns each year.
Since mine are worthless, and may always be, I thought they might be worth something in a buy-back. Another topic which could pit pilot-against-pilot.
I agree that we should stick together. Maybe scheduling and staffing monkey-business is a better topic for unity.
Regards,
-R
04-30-2005, 06:06 PM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
On a per CASM unit pilot base pay can be raised by management.
$10/per hour more, a miniscule amount, on base pay is not out of the question. It is a small gesture from management which would reap tremendous rewards towards pilot morale.
LCC does not equal low pilot pay.
Let us enhance our First Officer wages. What if a 4 year CA made $128.5 an hour? Does this sound extraordinary?
Can our airline have decent base pay and still thrive? I think the answer is yes. Does every pilot at JetBlue deserve a great salary? I think the answer is yes. We are not bickering over $200,000 to $350,000 a year salaries. We are just asking for some table scraps. That's all.
$10/per hour more, a miniscule amount, on base pay is not out of the question. It is a small gesture from management which would reap tremendous rewards towards pilot morale.
LCC does not equal low pilot pay.
Let us enhance our First Officer wages. What if a 4 year CA made $128.5 an hour? Does this sound extraordinary?
Can our airline have decent base pay and still thrive? I think the answer is yes. Does every pilot at JetBlue deserve a great salary? I think the answer is yes. We are not bickering over $200,000 to $350,000 a year salaries. We are just asking for some table scraps. That's all.
04-30-2005, 06:55 PM
#9
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Pathetic
You guys are all pathetic!!!!!!! Pilots screwed this whole industry(with the help of legacy management)!!!! We except these crappy wages and crappy work rules and crappy jobs.
*****S OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*****S OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04-30-2005, 08:33 PM
#10
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Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by apdriver69
You guys are all pathetic!!!!!!! Pilots screwed this whole industry(with the help of legacy management)!!!! We except these crappy wages and crappy work rules and crappy jobs.
*****S OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*****S OF THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whats this about a 10% raise? I'm in.
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