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-   -   Transcon Turns (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/411-transcon-turns.html)

Busdriver 06-01-2005 09:43 AM

Transcon Turns
 
Any Information (updates?) out there on the test of Transcontinental turns?

Thanks.

Lennon 06-01-2005 03:02 PM

No details, but according to M. Barger they are all but a done deal, apparently the FAA is on board.

I feel sorry for JB pilots that have to rely on ALPA jumpseats to get to work. It's going to get ugly.

WatchThis! 06-01-2005 03:26 PM


Originally Posted by Lennon
I feel sorry for JB pilots that have to rely on ALPA jumpseats to get to work. It's going to get ugly.

I don't agree with EVER turning down a jumpseater for personal or political reasons - but JB guys and gals should expect to get a hard time for going along with a 8/24 waiver. IMO it will be a well deserved hard time - what are you guys thinking? Is a 30/7 waiver next?

No, worse than being denied a jumpseat - a flight's worth of re-education.

Double Digit 06-01-2005 04:59 PM

If I were you I would be more concerned about how your management is running your airline into the ground. We need to stick together as pilots. The jumpseat is not the vehicle to express your political views. Jetblue has the most liberal jumpseat in the industy and they may not be big enough to hurt anyone today if that jumpseat was lost but in 10 years... Who knows.

The individual pilot should not be punished for a management discission.

Meworry? 06-01-2005 09:38 PM

Amp
 

Originally Posted by WatchThis!
I don't agree with EVER turning down a jumpseater for personal or political reasons - but JB guys and gals should expect to get a hard time for going along with a 8/24 waiver. IMO it will be a well deserved hard time - what are you guys thinking? Is a 30/7 waiver next?

No, worse than being denied a jumpseat - a flight's worth of re-education.

I'm thinking 20 days off a month! What's wrong with that?! You guys need to expand your thinking at the legacy carriers. As for jumpseating...well, I don't think it is us that needs the re-education, so I'll keep on welcoming aboard all who need a ride to work or home!

WatchThis! 06-01-2005 10:02 PM


Originally Posted by Meworry?
I'm thinking 20 days off a month! What's wrong with that?! You guys need to expand your thinking at the legacy carriers.

Oh to dream...... a managment that could actually use the contract to run a smooth and efficient operation - instead of a tool to beat-up labor. I think you guys will really need to watch how the scheduling is done to prevent long term fatigue. 20 days off per month could do that, but managemnt using the waiver "because they can" could be a huge downfall in terms of QOL.

Be careful out there.

Meworry? 06-02-2005 07:58 AM

You hit on the key when you mentioned the 30/7 rule. As long as the weekly and monthly limits remain in effect (and as far as I know JB is not requesting a waiver for these) then the 8 hour waiver can only be used to build more efficient, more productive pairings, such as Long Beach-JFK-FLL for example, not just transcon turns. We can match pairings to aircraft routes better. That will result in more days off. What we are expecting, however, is not 4 or 5 legs as part of a 10 hour block day, but instead a less fatiguing 2 legs, 3 max. I can live with that.

It's not survival of the "best," but rather survival of fittest, and that means those that can adapt. You can't adapt without change. We, as pilots, need to help manage that change, not simply resist it, or we will be left out of the process and have no influence.

Calpilot 06-02-2005 08:31 AM

The 8 hour waiver is just the beginning. Accepting this as the "norm" will result in future degradation of the current regulations. I believe in Darwinism but do not support changing rules that are contrary to flight safety. Anyone who thinks flying a 10+ hour LA turn safely with a 2 pilot crew is naive.
I know it must be exciting being at JB right now but what will happen 5 or 10 years down the road. Once you lower the bar it is not easy raise it again.

Good Luck.

Realistic 06-02-2005 09:33 AM

Calpilot,
I worked my butt off for three different airlines that did just what you say - beat us up with the rules. In all cases the pilots were burn't out.
If anyone at Jetblue needs an example of how the rules will be applied, look no further than our reserve ranks. I've NEVER seen the rules bent as far as they have at Jetblue. So to think that we will ONLY benefit from AMP is, in fact, naive.
I've read on several boards that "pilots have no control over management decisions." Certainly not without representation. But this statement is puzzling none-the-less because we're being told by our management team that this whole project is "pilot driven" and that it was "our" idea. I truly hope we can clear up which it is because either our management team is lying to us our or some of our pilots are lying.
I oppose this project for another reason though. Because our top 200 enjoy enough largesse at the expense of the growing masses. These trips will rise to the very top and the ones that don't will get foisted on some poor reserve.
Jetblue pilots of seniority 400 and higher LISTEN UP!
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
When the scheduling committee gets back surveys that claim that the pilot population values productivity above all else, and when transcon turns get built into our pairings, and when AMP and the 8 hour rule bolster reserve utilization it will take fewer pilots to run the airline.
Again - it will take FEWER pilots to run the airline. That's great for profit sharing but my life seems to revolve more around base pay since I joined Jetblue.
FEWER pilots for a given set of hours means:
1. Smaller bases.
2. Longer upgrades times.
3. Longer times on reserve.
4. Possibly fewer Airbuses for a given business plan.
Again, great for the bottom line but so is 190 pay.
Is it selfish to think this way? Well, I'm just stating the obvious but we all know that pilots think selfishly - although I've seen them do some pretty impressive things when they stick together. I would also ask, is it selfish to chase after trans-con turns when your in the top 200? If it's all in the name of profit sharing I guess anything is OK.
We'll see how this all turns out. Maybe I'm wrong and the ENTIRE industry will benefit from this program. If it becomes another tool for the rich to get richer you know that I won't be caught resting.
One more word on AMP. Does anyone else find it a little anoying and somewhat "big brotherish" that we are going to be advised on how to take care of ourselves at home in order to come to work rested? I'll spend my time with my family the way I want to and I will seek to maximize it at every opportunity. I don't need a lecture on how to do that.
What I have just laid out is something that (at this point) I would never say in a pocket session - so this message board for me has once again proven it's worth.
Fly safe friends.

automatique 06-02-2005 10:58 AM

This my second try at my first post because the first disappeared.
If it double posts, I apologize.
My message was that I believed the transcon AMP science is valid. Sadly, I don't trust JB scheduling to properly administer it. They follow "guidlines" when it's convenient. When they get in a jam, all that goes out the window and we have many guys here that are too "mission-oriented" to call BS.
As usual, this will benefit a small number of very senior pilots. The rest of us will be negatively or neutrally impacted. Not counting the "re-education" during our commutes, of course.


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