Boomer

You don’t have CBA protections (grievances and such) until you’re off probation, which is a year from your DOH. However, your employment - and JetBlue’s treatment of you - is still governed by the ALPA CBA.

RegionalRetread

According to the ALPA rep that talked to us after we were informed of the companies decision, we aren’t. He said we are only fully covered by the CBA after IOE. “We are in the greyest of grey areas” right now. The only thing the union has guiding them is the RLA. Believe me I was just shocked to hear that little tid bit too. I’m no lawyer but that exactly what we were told by the union.

Boomer

Sorry to hear that. Seems cut and dry to me. 22.A says you’re on the list. 22.B says your probation has started. 22.A.2 specifically states that your rights “with respect to the seniority list” begin after IOE, it doesn’t say “all rights” wait until after IOE.


CBA Chapter 22 Seniority

A. Seniority as a Pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a Pilot with
the Company. A Pilot shall be placed on the Seniority List on the Pilot’s first
day of his initial training class.
...
2. The Pilot’s rights with respect to the Seniority List shall not take effect
unless and until the Pilot has successfully completed Initial Operating
Experience (IOE) and a line check. Seniority shall accrue during the
Pilot’s employment with the Company as provided in this Agreement
and the Pilot, once having established a seniority date hereunder, shall
not lose that date nor lose his relative seniority position except as provid-
ed in this Agreement or to correct an administrative error.
...

B. Probationary Period
A Pilot shall be on probation for a period not to exceed the first 365 days from
his date of hire, excluding any periods while on furlough or unpaid leave
of absence in excess of sixty (60) days. Nothing in this Agreement shall be
construed to extend the right to arbitrate a grievance concerning his disci-
pline or discharge to a Probationary Pilot, or to require that the discipline or
discharge be based on just cause. However, a Probationary Pilot shall have
the right to submit any other grievance

BeatNavy

I’ve heard this as well, which is also why we have a newhire who got hurt at the lodge in initial playing volleyball, is out for several months, and was told to reapply. His case is still pending.

I don't understand how pre-IOE complete guys are in a gray area, other than maybe the way the definition of first officer reads in the CBA (ie meeting the regulatory and contractual criteria to hold such status). But I contend that if anyone accepts a position as a first officer and begins training, they are added to the PILOT seniority list on day 1, and therefore should be covered as a probationary pilot. Furthermore, the probationary period in the CBA is defined as 365 days from date of employment. If they aren’t a “probationary pilot” for the first month or two while in training, then what are they? Because there is no other definition, title, or position that I can see that would fit.

Hopefully this “gray area” is resolved in CBA 2.0. It’s ridiculous and petty that JB would try to pull this. And B6ALPA sounds like they are just as much to blame. There should be no “gray area” as to employment status, and they should be fighting tooth and nail to protect EVERY pilot here, even if probationary. They should be publicly denouncing JB’s treatment of newhires and this now disputed “gray area.”

Boomer

If there’s a gray area, it’s in the “Definitions” chapter, which identifies pilots as: Captains, First Officers, and Instructor Pilots.

The definition of First Officer may not extend to someone who isn’t qualified to operate the aircraft:

First Officer: A Pilot who meets the applicable regulatory and contractual criteria
to hold such Status and who is designated by the Company as second in com-
mand while on duty.

But if that’s a gray area, then wouldn’t that gray area extend to anyone on property that isn’t “current” by FAA standards?

hyperboy

This is all part of a standard ALPA contract FYI. Nothing you would really spend capital on. It is what it is for other airlines as well.

BeatNavy

Are other ALPA airlines saying that those pilots who are not yet complete with IOE, but who are on the seniority list, are not even considered probationary pilots until completion of IOE as appears to be the case here, despite being on the seniority list, being employed as a pilot, etc.?

Regarding spending capital...no capital would or should be required to clearly define a new hire’s employment status, ie elimination of a “gray area,” one way or another. Either they are jetblue “pilots” covered under the CBA (in a probationary status) or they are not, and that needs to be in black and white...not a “gray area” as ALPA is saying. If that’s how the company and ALPA want to roll, they need to change the definition of pilot and/or first officer in the CBA to clearly indicate completion of training/IOE is a requirement to gain such status. Or, do the right thing and clarify it to include every person in this situation (who are not yet done with training/IOE but on the seniority list) as probationary pilots.

Probationary period, as defined in the CBA, already begins at date of hire and lasts 365 days. So it’s already in conflict with the notion that they are not covered under the CBA until complete with IOE, as that definition indicates the CBA defined probationary period begins day 1...if the CBA didn’t apply til IOE was complete, then that line can’t really apply to a pilot trainee. See what I’m getting at?

Shako68

So a friend of mine got the email yesterday inviting him to do the virtual phone screening and begin phase 1. Are we still interviewing or was this sent out in error possibly??? Anyone with actual knowledge of this??? Thanks

Papa Bear

been here 8 years A320 Capt still in phase 2.

never got my phase 2 acceptance.

so theres that.

BeatNavy

Hyperboy said in this post that they are still doing phone screens to be ready to go with interviews when needed. And several phase 2 emails went out yesterday as well for those who interviewed a couple weeks ago, so at least they are progressing with that. No idea about resuming in person interviews though. Hopefully hyperboy can shed some light, but I’m guessing that is fluid and won’t be decided for some time.

If I had a buddy get a phone screen email, I’d tell him congrats, but to manage expectations. We will be lucky enough to not furlough...hiring more this year is very optimistic unless demand happens to come back very quickly after this virus goes away, assuming it does. Just my $.02.