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Old 05-13-2018, 07:14 AM
  #6231  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne View Post
I have always said the RLA is the real problem, but it’s the current system to get what we want so we have to play the game.
And that's the bigger reason why we shouldn't have stopped the picket, in my opinion. We need to demonstrate that we act on principles and not just the cost/benefit analysis of the time. We are far stronger as a union acting on principles because then the enemy will fear reprocussions more often. Right now they are only motivated if their manipulation of pay, contract language, and timing is unpopular. In a very real sense, they are 100% in control and we are merely reacting to it. This is the fatal flaw of the Vietnam style escalation strategy. You want overwhelming defeat, not just enough to accomplish an immediate objective.

The bigger game is to change the RLA and to show that we are principled force willing to use our weapons of war. You can't negotiate with a bully unless you give them a good punch in the face first. In order for us to be a market force, we must demonstrate principled action that becomes too costly for an airline to engage with. Look at the backlash companies like Starbucks get because a guy got kicked out.. now they opened the bathrooms to everyone. They rather not engage people because they realized the cost is too high. That is the position we must put ourselves in not just to straighten out BJ but also the industry.


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Old 05-13-2018, 09:42 AM
  #6232  
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Originally Posted by queue View Post
Stick and carrot is not the proper analogy as we have no carrot to give. We are not in the position to offer it. Only the employer is. This is more like the Mongoose vs. the Cobra. BJ is the cobra. Both can kill each other but Riki Tiki can win any given day but only if he fights. Right now we're turning our back to the cobra.

It's not over until the TA is signed and enacted. Remember that even with a contract, someone has to police BJ for infractions, which they will undoubtedly commit. In my opinion, every infraction ought to be met with immediate accountability within contract law.

Goodwill is only for fools who know nothing about corporations or law.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
We do have carrots to give. Our ability to go beyond the scope of our PEA duties in order to smooth out day to day ops, and engage the customers (ie standups) among other things. Notice I didnt mention cleaning.

I look at DAL as the model we should be emulating. DAL has buy in from its pilots. It has purchased this good will with consistent industry leading pay and benefits.

No doubt those guys hold the company to account with CBA violations, and even *gasp* vote down unacceptable TAs.

They also do stand ups, single engine taxi, pickup open time (for double pay) and go the extra mile to get the metal moving.

Its a balance.
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Old 05-13-2018, 10:27 AM
  #6233  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas View Post
We do have carrots to give. Our ability to go beyond the scope of our PEA duties in order to smooth out day to day ops, and engage the customers (ie standups) among other things. Notice I didnt mention cleaning.

I look at DAL as the model we should be emulating. DAL has buy in from its pilots. It has purchased this good will with consistent industry leading pay and benefits.

No doubt those guys hold the company to account with CBA violations, and even *gasp* vote down unacceptable TAs.

They also do stand ups, single engine taxi, pickup open time (for double pay) and go the extra mile to get the metal moving.

Its a balance.

And at what point is it being an enabler? For example, I'm not going to compromise safety by delaying writeups the way it's been for years. they're questioning people's writeups now even though they should have been all along. we should never do more than SOP. doing more just makes you part of the problem.



I don't like this idea of balance because that is what got us to this point since day 1.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
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Old 05-13-2018, 11:49 AM
  #6234  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas View Post
We do have carrots to give. Our ability to go beyond the scope of our PEA duties in order to smooth out day to day ops, and engage the customers (ie standups) among other things. Notice I didnt mention cleaning.

I look at DAL as the model we should be emulating. DAL has buy in from its pilots. It has purchased this good will with consistent industry leading pay and benefits.

No doubt those guys hold the company to account with CBA violations, and even *gasp* vote down unacceptable TAs.

They also do stand ups, single engine taxi, pickup open time (for double pay) and go the extra mile to get the metal moving.

Its a balance.
Yes, well said and I haven’t really seen any good counter arguments on here to this line of thought. BUT, as always, standing by for MEC guidance. At the very least, for now, I’m just glad to have one extra day freed up this month….
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Old 05-13-2018, 12:18 PM
  #6235  
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The company knows how much we pull the rope that makes this machine go. That’s our carrot. We don’t need to dangle anything. They burned the bridge not us. It’s now their job to bring us back into the fold. Simply having an agreement that is unknown does not fix anything. One announcement of perceived good will does not fix a decade of deceits.

Read up on fedex and their first contract.

I’m cautiously optimistic because I know our N.C. is too knotch, but stay frosty. This fight may not be over and you never quit in sight of the goal line.

Originally Posted by PasserOGas View Post
We do have carrots to give. Our ability to go beyond the scope of our PEA duties in order to smooth out day to day ops, and engage the customers (ie standups) among other things. Notice I didnt mention cleaning.

I look at DAL as the model we should be emulating. DAL has buy in from its pilots. It has purchased this good will with consistent industry leading pay and benefits.

No doubt those guys hold the company to account with CBA violations, and even *gasp* vote down unacceptable TAs.

They also do stand ups, single engine taxi, pickup open time (for double pay) and go the extra mile to get the metal moving.

Its a balance.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:14 PM
  #6236  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne View Post
Exactly. (With an info pickett)

I agree we need to do away with the RLA but the info pickett would do nothing for that. What you need is a national pickett by all airlines to get rid of it and I would be right there with you.

I have always said the RLA is the real problem, but it’s the current system to get what we want so we have to play the game.
The RLA isn't going anywhere in the essential transportation business. Well, not until pilots go away.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:36 PM
  #6237  
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Originally Posted by WhistlePig View Post
The RLA isn't going anywhere in the essential transportation business. Well, not until pilots go away.
That’s fine but my point remains, the RLA is the biggest “check” on pilot union power.
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Old 05-13-2018, 05:43 PM
  #6238  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne View Post
That’s fine but my point remains, the RLA is the biggest “check” on pilot union power.
Them's the rules. Work within them or frustrate yourself into eternal bitterness.
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Old 05-13-2018, 06:04 PM
  #6239  
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Originally Posted by WhistlePig View Post
Them's the rules. Work within them or frustrate yourself into eternal bitterness.
Amen ! There is plenty of other stuff to worry about that you can actually do something about.
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Old 05-13-2018, 06:11 PM
  #6240  
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Holy crap is sanity finally returning to this forum!?
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