Maybe so, but we have 3-4 years to weed them out if they show their butts. Unfortunately we are stuck with some of the jackwagons posting on here.

You make good points. Like I said in a previous post I am not as negative about this program as others. However, we should not recommend this program. Guys will not be treated well by there peers, that's already obvious. Candidates limit themselves to one airline,when with the time and money they could go to a different school and a more traditional route and better career opportunities. Finally it's not needed, there are plenty of qualified guys looking for jobs.

Gateway select interview
 

They aren't limited to one airline. They finish with an ATP and 1500 hours. If they want to go to a regional and get experience, off they can go. I finished flight school with $90,000 in debt in 2003. That's roughly what this program costs in today's dollars. But it was money well spent. I finished my commercial and CFIs quickly, and by spending that money I got hired at an airline faster than if I had done it cheaper and slower.

I just really don't see the problem. Many of us took different paths to get here. These guys will be trained in airline ops from day one, and will instruct over 1,000 hours before starting here. They are being thoroughly tested, and they have 3-4 years to get a good hard look at them before they get a seniority number. That's a heck of a lot better than we get with someone off the street.

As far as the "it's not needed" argument goes, this program isn't needed now. But it may be needed someday. And if it's needed it takes 4 years to spool it up. That's an eternity in a staffing timeline. Why wait until it is needed to start it?

You know what else isn't needed, but we do anyway? Vets in Blue. We have lots of applicants independent of that. We should axe that program since "it isn't needed."

We should just stop hiring anyone other than regional guys. We have plenty of them applying to meet the demand, so why hire military and corporate guys? They aren't needed.

OR, we can all appreciate that we all took different paths to get here, and stop being jerks to each other.

I don't not agree with either of your post, and I don't really care to explain why.... again. I will comment on your military and vets in blue. The vets in blue is to attract military pilots. Being such a small airline most military guys don't know anything about jetBlue and they only focus on the big 3. Military guys have proven they can fly complicated airplanes in the left seat or solo. They are a proven product. Corporate guys come with a world of experience. If you want to reduce the value of this job and make sure we hire people that will never leave than yes, keep hiring regional FOs with no PIC and gateway 7 guys. In that line of thinking why pay us more, let the qualified guys move on to better paying places, there is always a regional FO that wants to work here. Since he won't be able to get on at the airlines that pay better, because those airlines are hiring military guys and corporate guys, tons of them, he will be stuck here at low wages. Do you work directly for B.S.?

Gateway select interview
 

Are regional pilots not proven? They worked their asses off in substandard working conditions for years on end, doing essentially the same job in similar equipment. Sounds proven to me.

They are, and most are great pilots and know how to fly point A to B very well. Like you said they work their asses off, so do corporate pilots, so do military pilots. I have a problem with someone with less experience getting hired in front of them because the company wants to hire people that CANT leave. First is was regional FOs with no PIC. These guys have never set the left seat. There is a difference in one with 8K hours that never upgraded due to timing and one with 3k hours that just skipped ahead of everyone. JetBlue should hire the most qualified. But hiring no PIC 3K hour regional pilots and the gateway 7 instead of the thousands of qualified pilots out there because they are scared the competitive guys will leave is something us as pilots should not want. The guys with good resumes are not coming here right now. Ask around what a new hire class at delta or fedex looks like. It's not a regional pilot with no PIC and 3k hours. If JetBlue wants to keep competitive pilots from leaving than pay us more. Can you really be proud of the work it took to get here and the experience you have when you find out a guy ahead of you or behind you got hired at 1500 hours and no Jet time. Pay us better than industry standard and we will never have a problem getting pilots. I think management is getting prepared how to scrape dudes from the bottom of the barrel, when they should be trying to get them from the top.

Sigh...I had a whole reply written out, and it got deleted. I'm not writing it out again.

This program isn't about keeping pilots here. It's about innovating new ways of becoming a pilot. We have 7 gateways. 7. Jetblue likes to get pilots from varied sources. Our program will become the standard for Delta and United's program someday.

As far as my career goes, I don't base my feeling on my career off of anyone else. I have pride in my accomplishments and it doesn't matter if we hire a guy off the street or not. I don't get my validation in such a shallow way.

I'd be surprised if there were more than 10 guys a year hired with 3k hours and no PIC. Maybe a handful with amazing connections but it's the exception not the rule.

Gateway select interview
 

I think right now it takes 4500-5000 hours to get a call for an interview off the street. I've got a guy I'm trying to get on who has 4,000 hours and he's a captain at Compass. They won't call him until he has 500 more hours.

They are also the result of an ab initio program.

I disagree. After 19 years in the military, it's anything but ab initio. I joined the military when I was 17, I busted my ass to get a college degree, in hopes of flying for the military. I was enlisted 8 years, and now officer for 11. I fly for the military and for Jetblue. unlike an "ab initio" program, the military requires you serve regardless of if you make it through pilot training.
Make no mistake, I see your point, but they are hardly the same.

Military pilot training is nothing close to an AB Initio program flying around a 172. Now that's just funny.

I was selected for flight training in the USAF based on my grades, interaction with my ROTC cadre, and various aptitude tests and programs designed by the DoD to select candidates with a high probability of success. At no point did I get into an airplane and demonstrate an ability to fly, interact with a crew, or solve a problem. Doesn't that sound like an ab initio program?

I'm not drawing a line between SUPT and gateway 7, I'm just pointing out that ab initio isn't as foreign to many of us as we imagine it is. Guys are going kinetic in theater with 300 hours of flight time. Is that not perhaps at least a jumping off point for a discussion about guys at 1,500 acting as a F/O on a 100-seat airliner?

I guess you really just don't get it. Military flight training turns out guys in which most upgrade on a heavy complex airplanes with around 800 hours total and do flights with a mission in between point A and B. Most are instructors by 1500 hours. The training of the two programs are completely different and not comparable. Is JB using a similar selection process? Yes. At 1500 hours will you be the same as a military guy with 1500 hours or a regional guy that has 5000 hours flying up and down the east coast dealing with busy airports, delays, diverts, weather, passenger and mechanical emergencies? No.

Do what you want. If you want to do this program go for it. Congrats on being selected.

Well said, well said

I'm not sure what your problem Is but you are lying at your ass. MOST pilots are dead set against this program. It lowers the bar just like cleaning the back of the airplane. You are not in touch with the real world boy. This will not be the standard at United delta American etc. We have 3300 pilots with thousands of apps on file. There are thousands of experienced pilots trying to get on here every window. We have less than 100 pilots retiring in the next 10 years. Where's your shortage. It's jackwagon like you that lower the bar for the rest of us. Tell your daddy thanks for paying for your 100k ruddle degree for us. We are so privileged to have you here. Your such a tool

First off, I've vehemently opposed to Gateway 7. Second, it's not the military. We are not conducting assault approaches, dropping bombs, or aerial refueling. For the most part it's a monitoring job. However there are times - like say last week in FLL when I needed to disconnect the AP and hand fly a short, visual approach to 10L in the bus because a line of convective wx sitting on the marker precluded any type of instrument approach. Strong crosswind, shifting to a tailwind at touchdown. Conditions going bad in a hurry and the path to the alternate - which we changed twice - was getting sketchy. That's what Gateway 7 does not prep you for. As far as "mechanical" skills under normal airline circumstances- again, not dropping bombs - they're probably there.

Can they program the FMS? Probably would leave me in circles. Decision making is what will come up short. I was not a military pilot but I cut my teeth flying single pilot freight at night in the MU2 out of downtown Detroit then the regionals. Of course after experiences as the one described, I usually look over at the Captain and exclaim, "Whew! I'm thankful gateway 7 prepared me for that." It gets a good laugh. :D

[QUOTE=grim04;2173761]...We have less than 100 pilots retiring in the next 10 years.[/QUOTE

In the next 10 years there will be 408 retirements or 12% of the current seniority list. 33% over the next 15 years. Still not much compared to the legacies.

It's called foresight.

How many JB FOs, on that list with very little retirements have apps out to legacies?

When the majors all take the next necessary step in the flow through, and take all flying in house and start hiring directly into the regional jets, what happens to JB's applicant pool?

American is signing up flight instructors currently, then regional flow. C152-777. They will gradually tweak this program until All attrition is eliminated within the pipeline to American. The other legacies will follow suit.

JB will evemtually need this program to survive.

Quote from senior South West manager

“That is one of the things in my job I get to worry about every day and when I go to bed at night,” said Greg Muccio, a senior manager at Southwest Airlines Co. “The biggest problem is a general lack of interest in folks pursuing this as a career anymore. That’s what puts us in the most jeopardy.”

If the contract, pay, and work rules are crap, then yes they will have a hard time getting pilots. This is all fixed by the company paying to play. It's that easy. Instead of paying a group, that out performs what is expected of them, top rates and being able to recruit the best talent by giving top rates and benefits, the company would rather settle for sub standard rates and recruitment of sub standard pilots in the future. You said it yourself AA is getting instructors now, that still have to go through a flow through at a regional. Couldn't we do that? What's keeping us from getting those same guys. Can't we have a place where people would desire to come. Can't we be the first choice?