Pilot Jobs Don't Pay Enough
05-18-2018, 05:34 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,090
Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
I was referring to the ignorant comment above about how one has to make $300k just to have a middle class lifestyle LOL
Taxes, health insurance and expenses, loss of medical insurance, taxes, life insurance, decent private schools, saving for college, taxes, two reliable/safe vehicles, taxes, a decent home in a decent neighborhood, saving for retirement and maybe vacation or two per year will burn through $200-$300k pretty quick in most cities mentioned in this thread, even near Detroit.
05-18-2018, 09:13 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,588
Originally Posted by threeighteen
Honestly it sounds about right for a total household income these days assuming 2 adults and 2-3 children. Depending on the city that $300k will be either upper middle class or lower middle class.
Taxes, health insurance and expenses, loss of medical insurance, taxes, life insurance, decent private schools, saving for college, taxes, two reliable/safe vehicles, taxes, a decent home in a decent neighborhood, saving for retirement and maybe vacation or two per year will burn through $200-$300k pretty quick in most cities mentioned in this thread, even near Detroit.
Taxes, health insurance and expenses, loss of medical insurance, taxes, life insurance, decent private schools, saving for college, taxes, two reliable/safe vehicles, taxes, a decent home in a decent neighborhood, saving for retirement and maybe vacation or two per year will burn through $200-$300k pretty quick in most cities mentioned in this thread, even near Detroit.
05-19-2018, 10:35 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Position: FO
Posts: 627
Originally Posted by threeighteen
Honestly it sounds about right for a total household income these days assuming 2 adults and 2-3 children. Depending on the city that $300k will be either upper middle class or lower middle class.
Taxes, health insurance and expenses, loss of medical insurance, taxes, life insurance, decent private schools, saving for college, taxes, two reliable/safe vehicles, taxes, a decent home in a decent neighborhood, saving for retirement and maybe vacation or two per year will burn through $200-$300k pretty quick in most cities mentioned in this thread, even near Detroit.
Taxes, health insurance and expenses, loss of medical insurance, taxes, life insurance, decent private schools, saving for college, taxes, two reliable/safe vehicles, taxes, a decent home in a decent neighborhood, saving for retirement and maybe vacation or two per year will burn through $200-$300k pretty quick in most cities mentioned in this thread, even near Detroit.
You are deluded. Pretty sure I hit all those marks above on a regional FO equivalent salary (PC-12 captain). I live an hour outside of Boston. No need for the private school since my taxes pay for wonderful public schools.
Living in a city CAN be expensive. Having a decent life on an entry level pilot's salary does not need to be.
05-19-2018, 09:02 PM
#34
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,002
Originally Posted by Toonces
You are deluded. Pretty sure I hit all those marks above on a regional FO equivalent salary (PC-12 captain). I live an hour outside of Boston. No need for the private school since my taxes pay for wonderful public schools.
Living in a city CAN be expensive. Having a decent life on an entry level pilot's salary does not need to be.
It contradicts the lies being swilled by those with silver spoons surgically sewn into their mealy mouths, and that's entirely unacceptable.
05-20-2018, 08:08 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 233
I have lived in the ORD suburbs for 25+ years. All of the obscene taxes, home prices, etc. associated with a large Metro area are definitely in play here.
Very rarely have I exceeded 6 figures in a 30 + year airline career.
I have owned two homes in two very decent suburbs, saved for a retirement, raised a Son, payed his Mother 20% of my income for 15 years, have driven decent cars, taken vacations, seen the World, and generally partied like a Rock Star when necessary.
My "First Retirement", when a previous Employer failed, was at age 50. Out of sheer boredom after 2.3 years I went back to flying.
Looks like my next "Retirement" ( Medical ) started about 18 months ago at age 57.
If I don't get back to flying I'm okay til' about age 90 financially. And, this is calculated using my money, not insurance/disability etc. Hmmm. Impossible isn't it ?
And, NO...I don't eat Ramen, or Mac and Cheese (unless I feel like it ) nor do I eat fast food/processed garbage. Mostly just fresh chicken, beef, pork, fish and veggies thank you.
"Per Diem is not compensation"...30 years of hearing THIS Stupid Argument.( ! )
That's funny.. I have a nice six figure (plus) account that I have built almost SOLELY on depositing Per Diem checks over the last 25 years. Per Diem IS compensation and it's MUCH BETTER than regular income because ... It's Tax EFFIN' Free for Christ's Sake!
Unfortunately, as this thread clearly illustrates, many Pilots are basically illiterate, both financially and functionally.
A friend of mine ( not a pilot ) came out of bankruptcy and luckily got a raise from his employer from 70k to about 90k. He said " Not bad, Huh !? A guy can live pretty well on that kind of money, right?! "
I smiled and explained " Well, if you can't make it on 70 grand a year, you certainly can't make it on 90. "
TRUE DAT.
Love,
Stimpy
Very rarely have I exceeded 6 figures in a 30 + year airline career.
I have owned two homes in two very decent suburbs, saved for a retirement, raised a Son, payed his Mother 20% of my income for 15 years, have driven decent cars, taken vacations, seen the World, and generally partied like a Rock Star when necessary.
My "First Retirement", when a previous Employer failed, was at age 50. Out of sheer boredom after 2.3 years I went back to flying.
Looks like my next "Retirement" ( Medical ) started about 18 months ago at age 57.
If I don't get back to flying I'm okay til' about age 90 financially. And, this is calculated using my money, not insurance/disability etc. Hmmm. Impossible isn't it ?
And, NO...I don't eat Ramen, or Mac and Cheese (unless I feel like it ) nor do I eat fast food/processed garbage. Mostly just fresh chicken, beef, pork, fish and veggies thank you.
"Per Diem is not compensation"...30 years of hearing THIS Stupid Argument.( ! )
That's funny.. I have a nice six figure (plus) account that I have built almost SOLELY on depositing Per Diem checks over the last 25 years. Per Diem IS compensation and it's MUCH BETTER than regular income because ... It's Tax EFFIN' Free for Christ's Sake!
Unfortunately, as this thread clearly illustrates, many Pilots are basically illiterate, both financially and functionally.
A friend of mine ( not a pilot ) came out of bankruptcy and luckily got a raise from his employer from 70k to about 90k. He said " Not bad, Huh !? A guy can live pretty well on that kind of money, right?! "
I smiled and explained " Well, if you can't make it on 70 grand a year, you certainly can't make it on 90. "
TRUE DAT.
Love,
Stimpy
Last edited by Stimpy the Kat; 05-20-2018 at 08:51 AM.
05-20-2018, 08:59 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by johnburke
do not attempt to impose truth and fact upon a discussion such as this.
It contradicts the lies being swilled by those with silver spoons surgically sewn into their mealy mouths, and that's entirely unacceptable.
It contradicts the lies being swilled by those with silver spoons surgically sewn into their mealy mouths, and that's entirely unacceptable.
Yup! That ^^^^ !
STK
05-20-2018, 09:11 AM
#37
Speed Verified
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,013
Originally Posted by threeighteen
Error 1:
Per diem is not compensation, and yet you are counting that.
Error 2:
Many of those numbers are manipulated figures by recruiting departments and not minimum guarantee. Minimum guarantee is the only thing that you can build a responsible budget around in this industry. All of my numbers are at minimum guarantee, as that's what most pilots make first year unless they pick up flying on their days off.
Error 3:
Signing bonuses are not reliable compensation, many of them are conditional upon the pilot staying there for several years. And compensation actually goes down significantly starting at year 2 if you do factor in the signing bonus.
Also, many of the signing bonuses have catch-22s that state something like 1/2 of this bonus will be paid out at the 24-month employment anniversary if the pilot is not "upgrade eligible" and then they won't pay the pilot that second 1/2 of the bonus, because they have the 1000sic 121 and are by definition "eligible" even if they have the bid in for upgrade but simply don't have the seniority to be awarded it yet.
You are obviously very clueless and detached from the reality of FO compensation at regional airlines. It's all smoke, mirrors, lies, and misdirection to get people in the door before they get a chance to understand the fine print.
Error 4:
what is the relevance rotor bonuses for the mil guys? That's not relevant to the issue that the civilian guys are shelling out close to $50-$100k+ for training and education these days and still getting hosed and put second in line to the mil guys, which is what is causing the pilot shortage at the regional level.... Why pay so much money on training and education when one can go to a 3-6 month "coding camp" straight out of highschool and make $100k+/year without the debt?
The whole "I was able to do it at $10-$20k/year when gas was less than a buck a gallon, flight training was $5/hr, and rent was $200/month, so you should be able to do it too" argument is a fallacy at best.
Per diem is not compensation, and yet you are counting that.
Error 2:
Many of those numbers are manipulated figures by recruiting departments and not minimum guarantee. Minimum guarantee is the only thing that you can build a responsible budget around in this industry. All of my numbers are at minimum guarantee, as that's what most pilots make first year unless they pick up flying on their days off.
Error 3:
Signing bonuses are not reliable compensation, many of them are conditional upon the pilot staying there for several years. And compensation actually goes down significantly starting at year 2 if you do factor in the signing bonus.
Also, many of the signing bonuses have catch-22s that state something like 1/2 of this bonus will be paid out at the 24-month employment anniversary if the pilot is not "upgrade eligible" and then they won't pay the pilot that second 1/2 of the bonus, because they have the 1000sic 121 and are by definition "eligible" even if they have the bid in for upgrade but simply don't have the seniority to be awarded it yet.
You are obviously very clueless and detached from the reality of FO compensation at regional airlines. It's all smoke, mirrors, lies, and misdirection to get people in the door before they get a chance to understand the fine print.
Error 4:
what is the relevance rotor bonuses for the mil guys? That's not relevant to the issue that the civilian guys are shelling out close to $50-$100k+ for training and education these days and still getting hosed and put second in line to the mil guys, which is what is causing the pilot shortage at the regional level.... Why pay so much money on training and education when one can go to a 3-6 month "coding camp" straight out of highschool and make $100k+/year without the debt?
The whole "I was able to do it at $10-$20k/year when gas was less than a buck a gallon, flight training was $5/hr, and rent was $200/month, so you should be able to do it too" argument is a fallacy at best.
05-20-2018, 11:09 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Originally Posted by Beech Dude
In regards to whatever "3 to 6 months of coding camp" is...are you alluding that all mil pilots just show up, do 3 to 6 months of training and are handed wings and a 100K paycheck? Guess I signed the wrong dotted line to work my tail off in ROTC and flight school to earn my wings and pull my $29K/yr 2Lt paycheck.
https://www.techrepublic.com/article...-coding-camps/
05-20-2018, 06:17 PM
#39
Speed Verified
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,013
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
He may be referring to this kind of computer training program, which looks like a good way to lose money and remain unemployed.
https://www.techrepublic.com/article...-coding-camps/
https://www.techrepublic.com/article...-coding-camps/
05-21-2018, 11:43 AM
#40
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
One can live in almost any major metropolitan area in the country comfortably on $100k... this excludes s-holes such as NY, Bos, DC, LA, Sea, SFO, Chicago.
Practically anywhere else in the country, $100k does just fine.
$100k doesn't force you to live in a small town.
LOL no it really doesn't. You must be really bad at math.
Practically anywhere else in the country, $100k does just fine.
$100k doesn't force you to live in a small town.
LOL no it really doesn't. You must be really bad at math.
You just excluded all the major metro areas??? That was my point. I wasn't talking about Kansas City, Tulsa, Lincoln, etc. I was talking about the BIG major metro areas where most pilot domiciles are located...
Too many pilots have stockholm syndrome and think a nine-hour, two-leg door-to-gate commute is just what normal people have to do to hold down a job.
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