Do what you love?
 

Old men sometimes say to "do what you love". I don't think that they really mean to give yourself permission to go crazy. What it means to "love what you do".

The flashy and fancy sounding jobs usually come at a high personal price. Most people have many sides interests and abilities to them. Aviation is usually just one facet. People do not become accountants because they dreamed about it as a kid. They do it because they are good at it and it usually pays well.

It is better to love what you do and to choose a career that will love you back as well.


Skyhgih

Good point.

The problem is usually that if one has a job outside of flying, he cannot afford to fly. If one flies for a living, he doesn't have money for much else until he has spent so much of his life already.

Yes
 

Yes that is the dilemma alright. If you want to fully experience aviation from FL420 on down then you either have to be rich or sell your life away to aviation.

If I could have the opportunity to do it over again I would force myself to turn my back on such a perilous endeavor and develop a passion for something else that is more healthy and offers a better return.

Skyhigh

Well Sky - if you're back to making such sweeping general statements again then I'll just disagree. I spend nearly everyday with people who enjoy aviation from below Fl420 (most of the time) and have not sold their life away. Every one of those people are very healthy too btw.

USMCFLYR

For example? What if you had 940 tt, 185 multi, zero 121 experience, a four year degree, ten years of management experience (5 years managing at a national flight school), an MBA in progress, a wife, 2 kids under 5 years old, and a serious case of the flying bug?

You could be a plumber or you could get a job as police officer in Tacoma, WA. Those are Sky's favorites. My favorite is pharmasuitical sales. Any degree will do and the potential is there for a high income. Ask TonyM, he's the expert is the medical field here at "leaving the career".

Personally, if I had it to do over, I'd change very little. But getting into the biz mid-career and expecting it to pay better than your last job right away probably isn't gonna happen. You need to get into flying because you love flying and are willing to make the sacrifice to pursue it. It's not for everybody. Best wishes as you figure out which way to go....

So the question remains - how can such a person afford to do what he loves? Would I be better off going down the 135 or corporate road? I'll probably have 135 PIC mins in just a couple of months. Then I might be eligible for a 135 or corporate FO. If I did that for 5-10 years, would I be able to go to a major without going to a regional first?

Same Boat
 

I was in nearly the exact same boat. I was 36 years old with a wife 2 kids and one on the way when I was laid off from my 757 gig. It became obvious that my aviation path was leading into mediocrity. I suppose that most minor league baseball players reach a point when they know that the big time is not in the cards for them. They can either continue to play for the minors or try to find their place in the sun somewhere else.

After a year of searching for another flying job while building houses and investing in real estate it became obvious that I had found a much easier life. I made more money and had control over my life again. My wife and kids were happier and more secure. So I turned my back on my dead end dream and kept working my business. Today our lives are hugely better and most of the airlines that I was applying to are gone now.

Today I get calls from my buddy's who are still in aviation asking for tips on how they can get out too. I own a Cessna 150 and hugely enjoy flying it. Perhaps one day after my kids are older I might try to return however with time I am finding new things to enjoy and new ways to satisfy my aviation bug.

Skyhigh

"would I be able to go to a major without going to a regional first?"

Maybe. It all depends on the situation at the time. I never worked for a regional. UPS tends to hire from a variety of backgrounds, to include regional. Yet, if there is no hiring, it really makes no difference. You can't predict 10 years down the road. If you'd like me to back up 10 years, I could say that you could get hired at a major with 135 or corporate pic jet time. But there are no guarantees in this biz and no way to know the future.

Personally, I think when/if the economy turns around and age 65 works itself out, there will be movement in the career. Sky will say it's not a job worth having. I think it is. It's really up to and your situation.

Future
 

It is difficult to tell what opportunities you might find in the future. A better question might be if you would even want a job at a major airline in 10 years.

My prediction is that wages at the majors will keep sliding down to a point where it will not seem palatable after so much effort. Especially with an MBA under your belt. Would you really want to start over in your mid-40's as a new hire at the majors? Low wages, furlough risk, loss of control over your life. You have a family to think about.

I have known it to be true that if someone has a strong alternative to aviation then sooner or later the hardships will insure that they will take it. Seems to me that you have family responsibilities and a pathway to better life already underway.

Skyhigh

I am thankful for what I can learn from your history and experience. I have read your story and your resulting viewpoint on several forums. What I would appreciate from you and the others on this forum is advice! Where can I go? I love flying! I don't have building skills, and I don't have ANY startup capital for my own business. My only "skill" that can fetch a decent income is management of flight schools and restaurants. Those skills only allow me to make money for someone else, certainly not enough to be able to afford to fly something more exciting than a Cessna. I already have a sickening amount of Cessna time. Steep turns, slow flight, stalls, pattern work, approaches, power off 180s, spins, ad nauseum. I also have 185 hours of Duchess time, but see previous sentence. I have a serious case of the flying bug. I don't dislike flight instructing, I just want to actually fly somewhere other than the practice area or "cross country" training flights!!!!!
How can I afford to do what I love? Maybe completing my MBA will give me more options, but I was hoping that would just be my backup plan...

My story of personal success shouldn't threaten you, but you disclosed a fact that clears everything up for me as it pertains to you.
"you never worked for a regional"

Clearly, then, you are qualified to give others advice about regional jobs.

I have NEVER claimed to be the expert in the medical field here on the forums. I'm just a beat up old SAAB capt. that moved on to a SUPERIOR career. A move that will provide my family and me with financial security.

A move that was born out of the ashes of 9/11/01. I have advised others who have pm'd, and I shall continue to do so.

To the O.P., you have a solid back-up plan already. I'd finish the MBA, and fly on the side if you so desire. Later on, test the waters in the airline game. Personally, I wouldn't want to be on the bottom of anyones senority list right now. Either way, you've ALREADY got your back-up plan, which is smart.

Better to have loved and lost....
 

Sky,

They mean just what they say, and so will you when you are an old man. Love cannot be turned on at will, like a faucet, and nearly all youthful dreams appear "crazy" to non-believers.

And very few of them will regret their years playing baseball, no matter what they do later. If your advice is "never play the game too long", I agree. If you are saying "don't even try it", I disagree. Had someone talked you out of giving the airlines a shot, you would regret it forever, because you would never know.

Myself
 

I wish someone had given me an honest view of the airlines. My expectations were that aviation was like any other industry in that if you tried hard and were better than the next guy that you would prosper. It never occurred to me that something that demand so much would be such a long shot.

Had I known the truth I would never had taken lesson one. In no way did I want to risk poverty, humiliation and the loss of so much control over my life. I had to pay for my education and training myself. There were no loans for flight training. I wasted much of my youth working in gas stations and mowing lawns in order to get my chance. I was making an investment into my future.

There are a lot of things in life that are worth giving a try. Playing baseball is not going to endanger your life nor will it cost you a fortune for your chance. Standing in line all day for a shot at American Idol is not that costly. Aviation demands too much for too little.

Skyhigh

"Clearly, then, you are qualified to give others advice about regional jobs."

Yeah, thanks for the kind words. My first job in aviation paid $600/mo and worked six days a week. I've gone from that to UPS pilot. I think that qualifies me to have an opinion on everything in between.

TonyM, if you want to know about my background, put the link in my sig line in your browser. Should answer all your questions...

Sounds like someone is getting bored with GA flying... What makes you think that flying a jet cross country 6 times a day in a jet is any different? In addition at the end of that "cross country" you won't be going home, you will be going to the Holiday Inn.

Don't get me wrong, I love GA flying. I'm just tired of every flight being a training flight. I want to go somewhere, see different cities, and fly something more interesting than a light twin.
Furthermore, as tomgoodman said posted above, "Had someone talked you out of giving the airlines a shot, you would regret it forever, because you would never know." I have a serious case of the flying bug. Managing a business will not solve that. Perhaps if I could just taste the airline life for a couple of years, then I will know better what would be the best career fit for the long haul.

It's funny that they call this the "Leaving the Career" section, because that certainly isn't what Sky is treating it like.

I know we've all had that bug since we were all young. And your right you'll never know what its like until you do it. I love flying no matter if it was in the 152 or the ERJ. Keep an open mind, go fly the airlines and decide like you said then if you want to make it a life-long career. Besides, when you end your career might not be your choice if you get furloughed, shutdown or violated.

And I know your just mentioning that you are getting tired of every flight being a "training flight", but every flight I've ever taken from my first lesson to flying the line at the regionals I viewed as a training flight. You will always be learning in the airline biz...

I agree that is is extremely important to remain teachable. Like you, I am always looking for improvement in my own life. That's why I am seeking objective advice on this forum.

"It's funny that they call this the "Leaving the Career" section, because that certainly isn't what Sky is treating it like."

Yeah. I guess we need a "Rant about the Career" fourm...

It would be nice if there was more useful info here for those seeking a career change.

Yeah, but I bet that flight training was fun at first... What makes you think flying jets won't get old? Anything that's fun and enjoyable can become dreadful if done often enough. or if it becomes your job.

Ah, you are wise indeed. I'm not a Star Wars junkie, but the words of Yoda ring true:

“The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.”

Life is short. This is precisely why I pursue as many of my interests as possible. I am working on two master's degrees (I'll finish the MBA one before I go back to the counseling degree.) Hopefully I can use my MBA as a fall-back plan if flying doesn't work out, and I can use the counseling degree for my volunteer work.

In the meantime, I am wondering if I am just getting too old to be "regional FO poor."

HA. Funny I'm Yoda at the other site...

Good luck to ya's. If you have a good fall back (which you seem to), I would at least test the waters to see how it works for you. To each their own, I always say...

Darth say's this:

"To those with a commercial license in their back pocket and a degree on the wall I say, press on! They have already paid the price of entry. A sound path would be at least to put your cards on the table for a time and see what happens."

Skyhigh 3/14/08

the baseball analogy doesnt ring true. Professional athletes have a much shorter time in their profession than other professions. The average football players tenure is something like 3-4 years........ and I would suspect that baseball while longer is probably not more than 6-10 years..... hardly the same as someone entering flying with many years till retirement.

Tony and Skys experiences are theirs... De's are his... and everyone else's are their own. Everyone's experience in aviation will differ. The life can be difficult and fraught with perils both financial and personal, alot like many other professions... but still unique to this business. Will everyone who enters aviation end up grabbing the golden ring..... no... but neither do those any other professions. In the end one must do what is right for themselves in THEIR situations.

HAHA.

I love it.

DE has accumulated a personal library of SkyHigh posts and is able to pull them out of some kind of index system and paste in whichever one is perfectly appropriate for the discussion at hand, with the date of the quote.

Keeps me coming back! :p

Ahhh...glad you are entertained by all this....

The "index system" is nothing more than saving Sky's rants at a given time and place. His biggest problem is that he posts here for entertainment value, and, as such, his posts and stated opinions change from time to time to promote his argument of the moment. These moments are frozen in time, and it's not hard to save something in the moment that will prove a lack of credibility in the future.

People should read Sky's life story as a great example of the worst case scenario. But I wouldn't take the guy too seriously...

Quotes
 

DE is my biggest fan however he loves to use my quotes out of context. Six months ago it was easy enough to pick up a regional job and give it a try now however one might have to wait a few years for the opportunity.

I do not know if I would suggest the same now.

Skyhigh

Baseball
 

Baseball is a good comparison when examining career progression in aviation. As I mentioned earlier if a player falls short however all they are out is a few summers and the cost of a leather glove and cleats.

Pilots have to invest a small fortune and most of a decade in order to get their chance.

Skyhigh

I see that you have never had a child that started out playing Little League of some sort (different leagues) and then got serious about it and started playing those traveling teams and such! VERY EXPENSIVE all year round when you include the the 1-2 week baseball camps and traveling costs for 3 day weekend tournaments. :)
I'm sure by the time that a young man has even made it into any sort of minor league they have quite a bit invested in the hopes of making it to the big show.
Though most won't - they still play the game they love and many make a career out of it that is much shorter than one of the average pilot I would suspect.

USMCFLYR

That's more or less true. I embarked on a consulting career that paid for the fixed costs of airplane ownership, as well as the direct operating costs when I flew for business (one of the reasons I gravitated to a consulting gig was for the potential "fly myself" travel). But the finances were still so tenuous that I had to sell my plane when we had our second child; couldn't afford the time and $ that the fixed costs ate up. So I'm at the point where I need to get my commercial and switch careers...obviously not this year, though.

I had my cake and was eating it too, my problem is I want more cake than anything but a flying job will give me.

I have no small fortune involved.... I did give 7 years of service for my training, but thats the cost I endured. And I would do it again.....

Mr. MarineCorps has a point..... those guys in the minors didnt just decide to start playing ball...most started very young.... and spent a fair amount of time and money honing their craft......

Now I'm startin' to feel old.
Mr....???

USMCFLYR

My Point
 

The thrust of my point is that baseball players, plumbers or firefighters do not have to invest the price of a new starter home plus most of a decade of their life just to become qualified enough to fill out an application in order to "give it a try".

Time in the military is also an investment.

Skyhigh

I've done a lot of thought on this career vs. a regular job. I think it isn't the job, but rather the person viewing it that matters.

I think I am destined to be unhappy in either career, whether it be flying or accounting (my other plan). I might as well be at home with family and be unhappy than sitting in a hotel room on a 24 hour overnight being unhappy.

AMEN!!!! I don't believe the grass is greener on the other side. Its just as plain and boring as the grass I'm standing on now. Might as well be able to sleep in my own bed every night and have a little control over my life.


Well said