Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)

- Leaving the Career (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/leaving-career/)

- - Family Life (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/leaving-career/32689-family-life.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryris (Post 495768)

Take it from a guy who LOVES flying, thinks about it during any given 30 seconds out of every minute of the day, has dreamed of doing it since early childhood, and has done it for the last 10 years (professional for 2 of those 10), the profession isn't nearly as rosy on the inside as it appears from outside.

The mind has a way on stripping away the negatives in order to convince itself that the computation to follow the dream is correct. I am guilty of this myself, even after enduring this industry in nearly the worst of circumstances for a good while now. When I take off and climb above the overcast layer, my mind tells me that this is what I need to do. But, when I get to the hotel at 2pm for a 24 hour overnight at La Quinta, am forced to eat Chili's, Qdoba, Subway, or something similar every meal, and to telephone my wife night after night after night from some random city, only to find out that the flight I commute on going home is sold out, etc, it loses its appeal quickly. Couple that with limited job security, fairly low pay (at first), the "seat meat" status of the profession, the constant rat race of pilots flooding the market, the constant futile fights between union and management, the fact that EVERY flight is identical to the next, coupled with the increasing automation of the job - it just doesn't make much sense to continue with it.

The way I see it is that I would rather die with 8,000 quality hours in my logbook if those hours were flown with a student who is succeeding at my hands, or on a trip to Oshkosh with my wife in my own airplane, or on an Angel flight delivering a cancer patient to a hospital, etc than with 45,000 hours sitting in a beat up old jet, too high to really see anything, eating from a bag of airport McDonald's, while the autopilot does the flying anyway. Its a nice view, but one can hardly call it flying in a true sense.

I do understand the lazy factor of the job. You do get paid to sit back and watch the clouds go by. Handle a switch off every 5-10 minutes, big deal.

Honestly, after a 1,000 hours of doing it, it becomes a JOB! and a crappy one at that. The sunsets are nice, the outdoor aspect of it is cool. But once the wheels hit the ground, after the mandatory post flight walk around, wait for the hotel van, and final entrance into yet another hotel (where you will spend 1/2 of your nights for the rest of your career - if you are senior!), it loses its appeal quickly.

However, one must see it for themselves. I took 2 years off of another career to give this a shot. If I could do it all over again, I would in a heartbeat. And with the same breath, I will say that I am not giving up on it forever. My choice is to cut my losses for a few years during this downturn and diversify my professional portfolio. If the industry kicks back up, maybe I will go back - but that is a huge MAYBE. If I own my own airplane by then and can afford to fly regularly on the weekends and evenings, still witness the sunsets on my own terms, etc, I don't think I'll be going back. I'd rather eat at home, sleep in my own bed, and score with my wife whenever I feel the urge.

There are pros and cons. Every job has its own. But take it from Sky, myself, or many others out there, it is far from "living the dream" as the brochures advertise.

Could it work for you? Maybe.

Only one way to find out.

Good luck.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Sounds exactly like the life I'm leading...

Here is a thought.... All of the guys who complain over and over and over again about the obvious.... 24 hour layovers.... gone half the month.....eating out all of the time.... missing the family..... living out of a suitcase..... here is my question.... "What the hell did you think this life was going to be like?" and I would further assert that if your answer centers totally around money then I would suggest that you got into this business for all the wrong reasons.

This is a dynamic business NOT for the faint of heart. There are NO guarantees.... frankly there are not many in this life no matter what Sky might preach. I do not discount that much of what Sky or TM or any number of other people who have lost their way in this profession rings of some truth. Aviation has been a tough business as long as it has been a business. Sure there might have been a time or two when all the stars were lined up, but I suggest to you that those were few and far between.

Byris is right... it is just a job. I would rather do this job for an average salary than do something else I hated and be a pain in the ass to live with. EVERYONE's situation is different. There are NO absolutes in this industry. Nearly everyone's experience will be different. Good luck to all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HercDriver130 (Post 496953)

I do not get how you and your own personal history of quitting an airline job for similar reasons can hold such an attitude. If you did not have a gainfully employed wife to support you then you most likely would not he here either.

Maybe you are getting back in to aviation for all the wrong reasons? Besides this part of the forum is for career changers. Shouldn't they be able to blow off a little steam in a place that is meant for attitudes like theirs?

Using your approach maybe I should tell my wife that I want to stay at home and play XBox 360 all day so that I will not come home crabby from work?

In case you have forgotten this part of the forum is called, Leaving the Profession and this thread is titled, Family Life.

SkyHigh

Well you are at least partially right sky. I did leave the profession once. And probably for the wrong reasons. In case you had not noticed this FORUM is called Airline Pilot Forums... so why are you here ... I thought you were in construction.

One of my biggest complaints about this profession is that I personally suffered a great deal to get there. I worked three jobs to pay my own way through college and flight school and then endured an endless stream of miserable low wage flying jobs because I thought I was buying into a respected profession and not a life quest or experience.

I thought that such a sacrifice would lead to a worthwhile gain and not to a closet full of old company uniforms and boxes full of airplane pictures. I needed a job that could support my dreams and not a dream that became a job. Some here seem happy with writing off the wasted time and the loss of enough personal treasure to buy a house but I am not so.

Skyhigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by HercDriver130 (Post 497051)

You are not an airline pilot either. If it makes you feel better to consider me as a corporate Cessna 150 driver then so be it.

What I mean is that there are plenty of areas in APC that are intended for pro-flying types. Why do you have to put down those who are in the career changer thread? What compels you to want to label those who are dissatisfied with the profession for the same reasons as you were as being inferior in some way?

Why can't people voice valid complaints about the profession without others trying to censor, minimize or eliminate their statements? I swear you are almost as bad as me. :)

SkyHigh

Quote:

Originally Posted by HercDriver130 (Post 496953)

I didn't get into flying for the money. In fact, I took a significant pay cut to try it. If I had stuck it out in my previous profession, I'd certainly have well over double the wealth that I have right now. Do I regret trying the airlines? Hell no! And I might come back later. But only if the benefits are there.

The thing you are missing in your analysis here, is that the industry has taken a nose dive in the last year or so (one downfall in a sea of others post 9/11). When I signed up, I knew that I would spend time away from home, eat airport food all the time, commute to and from work, etc. I understand and understood that aspect of it. But it always comes down to cost/benefit.

When I signed up at the airline, I was hoping to at a minimum, be near the top of the F/O seniority list, getting 15 days off a month, etc by now. The line was moving that quickly, we were upgrading 20 a month. My next big QOL drop was expected to be when I upgraded to the left side, but then that would be offset by the double in income.

Its sort of like any job. You look at what is involved and provide the client with an estimate. This is effectively what I did with the airline industry. I decided that I wanted to fly and could offer my expertise on the subject for hire (little did I know at the time that the surplus of pilots at all levels makes this expertise a dime a dozen). I made a series of decisions that to adopt the lifestyle and put my wife and family through this, that I would have to gain a certain compensation package in order to do it. At the time of hire, there was lots of movement, I was on reserve for 5 weeks and had a line very quickly. Upgrade was not too distant away and it was worth it to sacrifice right now for something better in time.

However, since the fuel crunch, I have seen my seniority fall from half way up the list closer and closer to the bottom as captains are being downgraded, FOs furloughed, etc. Bad rumors abound constantly because there is no communication from the company. How can I plan my life if I have no idea what is happening? I wouldn't particularly mind if the company goes out of business - just tell me! We are all played like pawns on the company's chess board. If it doesn't behoove them to release information, perhaps for fear of a mass exodus, a huge amount of sick calls, etc, the info will not be released. I continue to see union pubs about how there was NOTHING accomplished during the latest round of negotiations (our contract has been expired for 3 years, we are paid the lowest in the industry). Add to that the fact that the company is pulling out of St. Louis and displacing pilots to IAD. In IAD, crash pads are twice what I pay in STL, and with the slew of UAL guys commuting there, the jumpseat competition will be off the hook. We have no commuter clause. I have received a displacement notice which will be effective Jan 5th, only to get furloughed March 5th. There is no set plans of growth at this company, and this company (Trans States Airlines) is one of the lowest bottom feeder regionals out there. The moral is horrible, the airplanes are barely maintained and many are just embarrasing, the training department is unprofessional, the memos we get are demeaning, etc.

So, considering all of this, and considering what I thought the professional advancement, increasing wages, etc would be, it just doesn't pass the cost/benefit test anymore. This industry is dropping fast. For a slew of reasons, being an airline pilot isn't even a "professional" job anymore (perhaps to those who know nothing about it and still hold memories dating back to the golden ages - a recent poll of regional passengers believe that I am making $80,000+ a year - little do they know the pressures we are working under). The gate agents believe they have more authority than we do. The bag handlers will give you lip if something isn't just the way they want it. GPU's are rarely available, we sit 30 minutes outside the gate waiting for marshalers to appear. It is just amazing how this industry is built from broken straws.

The only thing I cannot reconcile right now is exactly what the future holds. If, based on the aforementioned analysis, I would receive good pay and QOL for this job, I would come back. Perhaps it will recover in time. And my question to myself is this: If I were to hold on through the storms, would I emerge in a good position that would make me happy afterward? To this I do not have an answer. Some things in life are just a gamble. In my estimation, after watching and studying this industry is that it will be some time before it recovers again. One thing I do know for sure, is that if I pull out to go back to school to get the professional certification (CPA) I desire, that WILL be a good thing - that is one guarantee that I can count on. It will increase my marketability as a professional, and perhaps even in the flying profession. And it strengthens my insurance policy should I attempt professional flying and pull out again, lose my medical, get screwed by the feds, etc. Education is ALWAYS a worthy investment. The airlines "might/could" be. In the absence of any hard data, I am sort of taking it on faith that I am making the right decision to jump off the sinking ship and go try something else. I am only going to take so many breaths before I check out. How long am I willing to accept this pile of crap before it "maybe" pays off?

Perhaps if it bobs back to the surface, I will take a number in line again. But it will be after having taken a good amount of time off to do other things, after reassessing my life ambitions, and looking at the status of my family and the needs of it.

Good post bryris. Good luck.

USMCFLYR

I was a double major in college, aviation and business finance. Probably my biggest mistake from a pilot perspective was the business education. Throughout my career I was always figuring the opportunity cost that I was accepting to stay employed. The numbers worked out so long as I expected to get hired by a major while I was still young enough to make it pan out.

Over time and with more information it became obvious that even if my highest career hopes were to come true it just was not going to pay off when compared to other more common place jobs like my favorites: firefighter, teacher or police officer. I included factors like average career furlough occurrences, moves, initial investment costs in education and training, retirements and the time value of money into my calculations. To a lessor degree I also included quality of life. Everyone can endure hard job situations however it is much easier if it comes along with cash.

Then the majors started cutting wages and benefits. Everything fell apart from an accounting perspective after that. My break even point was 35 years of age. I figured that if I hadn't gotten hired by a major by that time then my return on investment would begin to greatly slide downhill after that. Now that we have gone to age 65 I suppose the numbers could be reworked however we also have lost wages and retirements to consider so if anything the break even point most likely would reduce in age.

Detractors would say that flying in not about the money. Well to some degree it needs to be.

SkyHigh

Everyone has a different time horizon when examining the return on an aviation career. A few years ago it was normal to expect to have to spend 4 to 6 years of working as a pilot before reaching a regional and then another 4 or 5 years until upgrade. After that there was usually a fair chance at getting a good job at a major and while still young enough to benefit from it.

During the recession of 1991-1992 it was common to encounter 3000 hour flight instructors. The current financial storm promises to make the 1991 recession seem like a speed bump. In the recent past it was easy to make it to the left seat of a regional however the jump to the majors has gotten much more difficult.

In any case everyone should greatly increase their time horizon when calculating their own career progress.

SkyHigh