Lone Palm

80% might be a little high, whoever reads this you need to keep in mind your life at the airline will be dramatically different depending on when you were hired. If you were able to get hired in the beginning of a huge hiring wave you will have a line, a lot of days off, and hardly talk to scheduling. If you are hired at the tail end, scheduling will be your biggest nemesis and you will not have nearly as many days off as you would as a line holder. That being said, pilots like to b!tch and there will always be something to gripe about.

SkyHigh

Everyone here at some point loved their flying job. Over time and as life changes your needs a dream can become a nightmare. I had a nice and long phone conversation last night with a friend of mine who is stuck as a regional captain. I helped him to get his career going over a decade ago. Since then I have watched as his attitude slid into loathing his job.

Flying for the regionals stinks. It is no fun to be gone all the time. 8 legs a day is a punishment. You do the same job as a legacy pilot but work more and get paid less than a third. Most people count on a short trip through a regional and onto a nice major. The reality is that for most the regional becomes a career and that is an unhappy thought for many who were counting on more.

Skyhigh

Lone Palm

8 legs do suck, especially on the Saab in summer. Some of my closest friends are CPA's and they have this same attitude you speak of. Maybe it's the individual at the core of it all??

SkyHigh

I think it is human nature to complain about your job, however the jobs that are the least fun usually pay the most. A pilot loves his job but hates the lifestyle that comes with it. An accountant might hate his job but has a nice home and family to return to at night.

When we are young our hearts are filled with desire for adventure and fun. As we get older security, stability, respect and comfort is the preferred condition. Older people who have felt the full weight of adult responsibilities usually have no trouble in choosing the job that is going to pay the bills.

Unfortunately people usually make career decisions when they are young. As a result the regionals are full of older guys who have lost the passion for flying, want to be home every night and wish they had become accounts instead.


Skyhigh

Lab Rat

Some people make career decisions when they are older too. Many things change over time, and the only thing that does not ever change is hindsight - it always remains a perfect 20/20.

Regardless of one's chosen profession there will come a point in most people's career when the passion begins to fade and it seems more like a job. Then again, a new car isn't so new anymore once the new car smell begins to fade as well.

But, I think we have to use caution when approaching other career fields as well. The industry isn't exactly a stellar performer at the moment and it is easy to look at every other profession out there and assume things are so much better. But, I think one would be very wise to heed the advice of those in other career fields when they share similar dismay in their jobs as some of us do in ours. "Things can't be much worse" is only a relative statement.

Many complain about the proverbial eight legs a day. A highly paid executive may have a similar complaint about working 70+ hours a week. But, it's all personal preference. Educate yourself about what you are getting into, and if you are sure this is for you then work hard and try to do the best job you can - whether it's flying airplanes, adding numbers on a balance sheet, or cleaning toilets.

Counselor

There is no magic number to how long one needs to stay in a firm or government office to learn what you're supposed to be doing as a lawyer. Some stay at a firm for 10 years and develop a niche (medical malpractice, commercial litigation, probate, etc.), and do very well. Others stay at a D.A.'s office for 2-3 years to learn how to try cases, and then leave and are very successful.

Appellate work is a different animal. Appellate lawyers first and foremost must be good writers, and legal writing is an art. Appellate lawyers then must really know the law (and procedure), and are looked upon as the gurus of law and procedure. To be a really good appellate lawyer, you need to litigate at the trial level to appreciate (and make) the mistakes that lend themselves to viable appellate issues. Some newly licensed lawyers become law clerks for a couple of years to hone their writing skills, and then venture out as "appellate lawyers" in their own right. Appellate work is tough to come by - it is almost always referrals from other lawyers who don't like/are not good at it. Hence the need for a reputation, which takes some time to build.

For those who aspire to dual careers in law and aviation, it seems to me that the law career needs to come early in one's career, and aviation later on. The skills and reputation needed to be a successful lawyer (usually) takes several years. Once that's done, you have a nice stable career with enough flexibility to tackle flight training. Just my two cents.

wrxpilot

Good post ufgatorpilot! I am a former mechanical engineer that worked both in aerospace and electrical utilities, and I shared a lot of the same complaints about my job/career with just a couple of minor differences.

What a life that was back then! Every morning I'd wake up with a feeling of dread about the upcoming day... Once at work, I dreamed of my future career in aviation, frustrated that it wasn't coming quickly enough. Although I worked with good people as well, I felt different than them as I knew my heart just wasn't in my work (though amazingly, I still got good performance reviews).

I'm now working on my third year of professional aviation, and I'm still happy with my decision. Sure, there are times where I am frustrated... My C.P. can be extremely difficult to deal with, and I've resigned myself with the fact that my current job is only going to be a stepping stone to something else. But I still look forward to coming to work, my work is usually exciting and different all the time, and I've seen and done some absolutely AMAZING things. My schedule is usually known, and the days off are always different which I really, really enjoy. It's awesome going out and doing stuff during the week, and my g/f has a weird schedule too (she's a firefighter) so we often have the same days off. There have definitely been times where I missed special occasions due to work, but in the end it balances out in my favor.

There have been moments where I said to myself maybe I should go back to engineering, but then I think back to how unhappy I was... Even if I were to lose my job in this terrible economy, I would try very hard to remain in aviation.

Also, there's a tendency on a lot of these aviation forums for people to develop blinders, so don't forget there's a whole other world outside of airline flying... That is one segment I'm doing my best to avoid unless things change dramatically. The pay and QOL are much, much better in the non-121 world, particularly at the entry levels. Good luck to you!

ufgatorpilot

I'm glad that overall you are satisfied with your decision to change careers! That's encouraging! I know that aviation will present challenges of its own, but like you, I'll be able to look back at my law job and be reminded of how much I hate it.

Ha, I know exactly what you mean about dreading the upcoming day. Actually, that usually sets in at about 5pm on Sunday evening and doesn't let up until I get out of the office on Friday evening. I am grateful though for my job because it has provided me with the means to pay for all of my flight training and to save up a little bit for a rainy day (which will definitely come, sooner or later).

I saw this link earlier... It was amusing, especially #2 and #9. Maybe you can relate to some of the things as well. As for #2, it's amazing how people go nuts if you try to eat food in the office that they find offensive. I do get a bit of pleasure out of popping popcorn in the microwave since it's sure to irritate someone who is bored and just wants something to complain about. We had one secretary that insisted that no one could wear any type of fragrance b/c of some allergy or something that she said she had (people in positions that do not have any real power sometimes do things in order to get a little power, IMO). That just made me put on even more each morning. With #9, you've got to love those emails sent to everyone in the office from a grossly overweight employee demanding to know who took the other half of her steak sub that she left in the fridge over the weekend. Ugh! Or the emails demanding the return of Tupperware that has gone missing from the fridge (or, in the alternative, compensation for the missing Tupperware).
10-office-faux-pas.html: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

Okay, just typing all of this made me go searching for some of the ridiculous emails I've received.

This one is a favorite of mine:

"Some of the employees had a birthday cake in the kitchen on 25 thawing with a yellow sign that read 'DO NOT TOUCH.' Someone took the sign off the cake and then had some of the cake and threw the dirty plate and our sign in the garbage can. This was another persons birthday cake. And you owe me $$$ since I paid for the cake and the birthday girl only got one slice. You can leave your contributions on my desk."

Of course, I have to ask: exactly how many slices of cake did the birthday girl need?

There was also this email:

"What is the going rate for a tooth from the tooth fairy?"

For real?

And I LOVED this one, from the girl down in the office services department with at least size D's:

"Has anyone seen $5 laying around. It was 5 singles and I happened to misplace it. I think it may have fallen from my pocket. Any and all help is truly appreciated!"

I won't even comment.

But, welcome to life working in an office. Like I said before, you just can't make this stuff up.

ufgatorpilot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alighted

The areas you practice in are areas I have interest in as well, just behind aviation and space law (as you might guess). I have gotten the impression elsewhere, that some other practice areas like probate or wills & estate law are more friendly toward the QOL issues -- do you think this is true?

Doing M&A and securities law would pretty much mean you'd have to be at a big law firm. Aviation law might be okay. Working for the FAA might not be that bad. That's probably a 9-5ish job. The pay is not as good as the pay can be in private practice, but QOL is probably better. But, I still think that if you were doing aviation law, you’d much rather be in the cockpit than doing any type of law that somehow relates to aviation. I spoke with a guy in one of our offices the other day. He does aircraft finance. Yeah, doing the legal work for financing a G-650 might sound cool, but really, you may as well be financing a John Deere tractor. It’s not like you get to check out the plane or take a ride in it!

Doing estate planning type of work would probably be QOL-friendly... But I bet estate planning lawyers have fires to put out just other lawyers. Also, I think you'd need an LLM in Taxation to really do estate planning. Add on another year to your education. And go pick up the Internal Revenue Code. Read it. If you can understand a word it says, you are much more intelligent than I am. After I finished my final exam in Taxation of Gratuitous Transfers, I vowed never to read the Code again. Whew, good thing they've never asked me to do THAT at my job. I would've had to quit right on the spot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alighted

I'm thinking that you work in Big Law? If so, had you considered a medium, small or boutique firm after graduation? What stage of career are you in? Would you consider a lateral now to improve your circumstance (assuming for just a second that the economy cooperates)?

Yes, I do work in Big Law. When I was in law school, I always thought I would end up at a small firm. The reason for that was because my undergrad major was accounting so I worked at a Big 4 (then Big 5) accounting firm for a summer. Whoa, now THAT was miserable (law is much better). At that point, I had a bad taste in my mouth so I was completely against Big-anything. But then I did really well in my first year of law school so I applied for summer associate positions at a couple of big firms because I fit into the criteria they had on their job postings. I ended up getting one where I currently work.

Despite the fact that I don't like my job, in general, I think that my law firm is a great place to work. And I don't think that I would enjoy working at a small or medium-sized firm any better. This year, since my practice has been slow, I feel like I've been able to experience what it might be like to work at a smaller firm since I haven't had to work as many hours. Yet I still dread going to work every day. Also, working at a big firm has some advantages that would probably make it difficult for me to transition to working at a smaller firm. The resources we have are incredible. We have 1000+ lawyers across the US. If you need to find a lawyer that has liquor license experience with a county in Montana, you will find someone. We had a construction lawyer in our office that was known as the "mold" guy. Yep, his specialty was mold. In my practice, I might come across a California lease during a transaction so then I can just call up a real estate lawyer in our San Francisco office and they can review the lease for me for California legal issues.

I've been practicing for 3 years so I'm still new at it. I'm finally to a point where I know some things and have some confidence (just enough to be dangerous). However, I've been carefully planning my exit strategy for 2 out of the 3 years...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alighted

I'd have to say, overall, you didn't rip the legal industry nearly as badly as I first believed you would.

Well, since you mentioned that.... I'll give you my thoughts on it.

My firm does not do any personal injury plaintiff’s work. We do some defense. The PI defense lawyers are just as bad though. They don’t want to see tort reform either. I read a couple of days ago that Pfizer spends more than $500 million dollars a year on legal matters. $500 million dollars a year = $1.4 million dollars a DAY! Now, a pharmaceutical giant like Pfizer would have lots of legal matters (securities law, regulatory, etc), but I’m betting a big portion of that $500 million is what Pfizer has to spend on personal injury lawsuits. And that's one reason why those little pills cost so darn much, not to mention the millions and millions that they dump into R&D and what they spend going through the FDA approval process, which I'm sure is a huge PITA.

I know that some people have legit PI claims against companies, but in general, people are just looking to make a few bucks IMO. It's ridiculous, and it just makes everything more expensive for the rest of us.

I did a husky sledding trip in northern Finland 3 years ago. I was shocked that they didn't even make me sign any sort of waiver. We had a group of 5 people and a very experienced guide to lead the way. Each person had 4 dogs and for 5 days we traveled from cabin to cabin. I think just about everyone in the group fell at least once, myself included. One woman hit her head on a tree as she fell off the sled, and I fell on the way down an icy mountain that made it difficult to brake. Luckily, we were all fine, and it was a wonderful adventure. I've never actually looked into doing this in the U.S., but I'd be shocked if you can find it anywhere. You can probably stand next to an experienced driver, or ride in the sled, but I doubt they will just give you 4 dogs, a sled, and an experienced guide to lead the way. Recently, I climbed the Dunn's River Falls in Jamaica. No waiver required there, either. As I was climbing the falls, all I could think was how much a place like that would get sued in the U.S.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alighted

As I'm sure you're well aware with the family members you have in the airline industry, that what you experience as stuff you don't like as an attorney, will just be traded for other stuff you don't like as a pilot (corporate, regional or major airline). Candidly, much of what you said is very similar, if not exactly the same as what we deal with as pilots, just a different venue. Just different grass, if you will.

It probably is different grass, but I still think it's greener!

bryris

Its not greener.

But you have to see if for yourself to know for sure, so press on!

I spent about 2 years of my life in the regionals and I don't regret a single second of it. It scratched the itch that I needed scratched. I was fully anticipating and hoping for a career doing it too - but I saw for myself that it is a different job - but a JOB none the less - and a crappy one considering many important points (and a good one considering other points, I will admit). Ultimately, I was forced out due to events beyond my control - displacement, furlough, etc. You can check out my blog below and under "Airline Life" read some of the articles I posted about it.

I love chocolate cake. If someone told me I could make a living eating chocolate cake, I'd think hard about it. But after you've shoved the 834th piece of cake in your mouth it doesn't have the same appeal anymore and you start to wish you could just eat the cake on your own terms.