Glad it did not work out
 

Well I can say with honesty that I am glad my flying career did not work out like I wanted it to. I know a lot of people that "made it" and the profession leaves them dissapointed. What does it profit a man to fly a 737 and lose everything else in life that gives him joy and happiness? It was my boyhood dream to be an airline pilot but that was back when it was still a worthy goal. The guy I went to Flight Safety with was a captain on a reigonal jet for years, but now he is not too healthy and suffers panic attacks, lost his medical, all done. He was very good looking when we were in our 20's but now he looks terrible, I feel bad for him. I am grateful today at 40 for what did not work out. I am now in the construction industry and I can't say that I love it but it is a job. My long commute to work is 7 miles and I get weekends off. A guy called me in the fall that wants me to work for him in the spring teaching at the local airport part time with the possibility of right seat time in a twin. I am excited about this opportunity but if it does not work out I will be enjoying life anyway.

I suspect that you're glad the bad aspects of the job "didn't work out". Of course, there may always be that lucky relative few who spent a lifetime at a stable carrier, at good pay, and with good work rules. It's the dream that keeps people buying lottery tickets and getting commercial licenses.

Sounds like puttering around in somebody else's twin (and you're not even responsible in the right seat) might be better than a multi-year reserve regional FO who doesn't live in base.

You never know, that puttering around might get me to be the guy in the left seat. I would love to fly a jet again but the lifestyle that always seems to marry itself to that has no appeal anymore. you are exactly right though, I am glad that the bad aspects did not work out because most of the jet captains that I know say that the thrill of the job does not last forever but the headaches do, and I believe them.

we are forced to hang up the wings
 

I myself have been out of professional part 135 flying, just celebrated my 1 year anniversary! I was laid off Feb 09. I miss the flying, some cool FBO people I met, and having real responsibility, BUT hated the schedule, erratic pay, having to use my own credit card for expenses and then chase the admin at the office to get paid, unable to hold a girlfriend since I was never home(and hearing "pilots have girls in every city they hook up with"..Oh yeah that's true! LOL), and only having 5 days off a month.

Today my first class med lapsed, and my currency in the Citation(I was a CE550 capt 4700 TT). Very hard to get a job out of currency, and I don't have the $5-7K to pay on my own for FlightSafety or SimuFlite to renew it. Since I have not sat in a jet now for a year, I'd prob need some work for sure.

After I was laid off flying the Citation, I did the car sales thing, worked at a new and used car lot. Everybody I worked with was amazed and dumbfounded that I was a pilot and now I was working with them. I was fired at the car lot after 6 mos working there, my 24 year old know it all general sales manager boss told me I was'nt pushy enough with customers to get them to buy.. BTW I'm 35 and it was hard working for a narcissistic 24 year old BS artist boss...So I'm back on unemployment stuck with the dilemma what I want to do. I don't want to waste my time, I need something decent.

I am considering a new job in counseling/social work, photography/video production or graphic design. I am considering going to school for one of these professions, hopefully under WIA beneifts. I look up and get sad when I see a jet fly over, but I remind myself we all have to do what is right for us. And the crap economy and greedy business people who run these aviation companies have ruined the profession. The love for flying is there, but the body, mind heart, and business climate can't fulfill the dream.

Stay strong, and go with what is good for you and supports your life. We only have one life and one body, no need on wasting it and giving it away to some entity that takes it from you.

Good luck, safe flying for those who still are

G

(laid off CE550 Capt Feb 2009)

I'm happy for you. Sounds like you've established a good lifestyle. However, I know plenty of regional captains in their 30s making upwards of $90,000 a year who still love their job. I left 121 for a Government flying job, but really can't look back and see the misery you mentioned. Sure, there's lots of BS, but was it awful? Not any worse than any other job out there.


I think problems arise when people chase a dream and not reality.

This is absolutely the best quote i've seen on APC. We need to start sharing that wisdom with all the young aspiring pilots out there. This is a job, a fun one at times but a job nonetheless. When people enter this industry eyes wide open they tend to be less disallusioned

But that's the thing. People don't enter this industry because they heard the grounded version of reality that most people scoff on this site. The only people who enter this industry with a grounded sense of reality is the career changers or the mil retiree crowd, both which do not rely on the industry lack-luster compensation to survive day to day. In eseence they are hobby pilots. For the rest of the peanut gallery, you better bet your bottom dollars they're coming in with the optimism-bias version of the industry of rapid left seat upgrade, major for 20+ years and six figure wide-body CA position with plenty of days off. That's why they keep lining up at Purdue/ER/UND et al or the allATPs of the world.

So I agree with you that we need to continue pushing forth the truth, but disagree this will lead to less disillusioned-prone people entering the profession. No, if the truth was better received you would simply have less people entering the field outright. No matter how much in love somebody is with aviation, only those who are not worried about paying the rent with this job pursue the industry without abandon. The rest simply delude themselves into thinking sour grapes stories of economic hardship will be an exception to their reality. If they actually internalized the statistically factual version of this industry they would not set foot at all I bet you that. So nothing has changed.

ALPA and other associations need to hit these young guys hard when they're still in school. The average ERAU student probably has no idea that they can make $48,000 their second year at one regional flying a CRJ versus $24,000 at another (those are real figures). All regionals are not created equally, and you're going to be at one for a LONNGGG time despite what the Kit Darbys of the world say.

You say nothing has changed - I'm not so sure about that. Enrollment is low at several schools you mentioned, and financing for flight training is nearly impossible to get these days. I frequently go back to my alma mater, and have seen more pre-ATC types than pilot types recently. You're absolutely right in the respect that there will ALWAYS be delusional youngsters, but I think the secret is out.

Will it get better? Probably not, unless supply and demand change. However, my time at a regional was very similar to my underclass years at every private sector place I've ever worked - you're underpaid and under appreciated. Unless you're with Uncle Sugar, there are no free lunches any more (I can't believe how much I make now for the amount I fly compared to the 121 world). I even have a lot of RN friends that aren't even allotted time to do ADMIN work while on the clock anymore. And to my friends working in Manhattan: I love you dearly, but 8am-8pm + BlackBerry + $120,000/year = not for me.

So because I am a military retiree and want to work as a professional aviator you consider me a hobbie pilot? Are you applying this term to only those wishing to pursue a airline career and not every aspect of commercial aviation?
I agree with the education aspect of your post and think that the reality of the situation ought to be pushed forward so that people of all rank and file can make a truly informed decision. But to call me, or my peers, a "hobby pilot" is inaccurate and insulting to my past experience and hopeful future professionalism.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR said it much more tactfully than I would have. Insulting, absolutely. Moreover, it is a BAD practice to start labeling any part of aviation with kitchy little terms that the ignorant talking heads can get a hold of. Soon the ignorants will be arguing to make laws restricting "hobby pilots."

Getting back to the topic of this thread, any career can be a soul breaker. It's just a matter of what flavor of BS you can tolerate. Perfect example being N5139's regional acquaintences vs skidoomike's friend.

My perspective test is trying to imagine myself at 75 reflecting on my life. Will I have regrets over the things I'm doing now.

N5139, very nicely said.

I think you will find that it is not what you did, but THAT you did that will make a difference to you when you are 75. Life is about playing and winning games, posing and solving problems, and the momentary contemplation of such success upon attainment. Without knowing anything about you specifically, I can say without reservation that a flight student who is working through the ratings towards the derivation of pleasure, as he sees it, in the attainment of a flying job is much happier than he'll be when he arrives. In this last statement, one can substitute most any activity in the place of "working through the ratings" and see the exact same results.

I have come to the realization in recent times that the best things in life have nothing to do with aviation, per se. This doesn't mean to avoid it, because aviation as an activity is as worthy a pursuit as any other. However, regardless of the game being played, one must continue to play the game to keep smiling. For the desire to win and the working to attain victory is more noble than the contemplation of victory after the game is won. More clearly, that you picked a game to play in life (i.e. a career, among many others - family, etc) and played it well, surmounted obstacles, saw new problems, and worked through them, is what, in the end, will see you to be smiling as you depart this world.

Boy did you hit the nail right on the head. If I had known what I know now back when I was 19 I probably would have gotten just a PPL and instrument rating and left it at that. Would have about $25,000 more dollars in the bank if I knew then what I know now. I still say that back in the 80's it was an acceptable risk to persue, but now those times are over. I did notice you left 121 for a government job, smart move.

Can you share what the gov't flying job is with us?
What differences are you finding in the two different types of flying that made 121 flying unacceptable and the gov't flying more rewarding?

USMCFLYR

USMC -

I am not comfortable divulging too much about my job, as many coworkers are lurkers and I am a coward when it comes to anonymity. I apologize. That being said, I am happy to share some particulars.


121 flying is in no way unacceptable, but certainly an extreme lifestyle choice. My former regional had uncommutable schedules, most of which began at 0500 on day one and ended at 2300 on day four. This resulted in me moving to my domicile, as the prospect of traveling on my days off (leading to about 1.5 days at home a week) was too much. This was sacrifice #1. I did not enjoy living in-base, as the area was not somewhere I could live long term, nor raise a family.


As you can imagine, such schedules were also incredibly brutal on the body. To work 0500-1600 on day one and 1300-2300 on day four is akin to working a 9-5 in New York and Tokyo during the same week. By the end of my tenure, I completely lost a circadian rhythm. This led to "work hangovers" on at least one of my days off: despite living in-base and having three days off a week (on average), my body was reluctant to do virtually anything on the first day.


Now, for the good stuff. When flying a line, I had ultimate month-to-month flexibility. Through good work rules, I could effectively force the company to give me 4+ days off every month, use my travel benefits, see friends, and travel the world. For a young guy, this was fantastic. The ability to live wherever you want is also very attractive to some (especially those with spouses with good jobs), but please keep my statements in the first paragraph in mind. Another great perk of the job was the autonomy. I maybe saw my boss twice a year, and it was to say hello. No one is looking over your shoulder when flying (unless you have a jerk crewmember or fed), and there is a lot to be said about that.

Pay wasn't uncomfortable either, but wasn't commensurate with daily duties either. The sheer responsibility to just report for duty at 0400 - not to mention deal with MELs, weather, ATC issues, etc. - warrants good pay. The people I worked with were also top-notch, and there was definitely camaraderie. Sadly enough, I think that most of the brotherhood was engendered by long hours and sub-par treatment, but it was there no less.


Simply put, Government work abides by the Fair Labor Standards Act (you get paid for everything work-related) and the airlines don't. Commuting, uniforms (at some companies), medicals/internet-based recurrent (paid for at most companies, but you'll have to do it on your days off), preflights, postflights, maintenance issues, and the like are NOT paid activities at most airlines. At one point, I believe reasonable mainline payrates compensated for this, but outsourcing of virtually all non coast-to-coast flying to regionals has certainly effected the game.

In terms of a lifestyle, I'm home most nights with the G, get paid appropriately, am allotted time during the day for work-related functions. Again, it's not that airline flying is unreasonable (there are some facets that you can't get with any other job on the earth), but a lifestyle choice. Personally, I like to be home more than a couple days a week, I like to do errands after work (so I don't need to do them on my days off), and I like the egalitarian approach to pay that the Government abides by.

Sorry for the ramblings - I know my response was all over the place!

Well said. Beware though, among all these red-blooded social-conservative-in-name-only military and airline pilots who lurk this board, you might be labeled an outright communist for actually appreciating said economic egalitarianism endemic of the Government pay structure. :rolleyes:

I like getting paid in dollars and not ILS's. The day we have a labor party in this country is the day I'll apply for a private job. :cool: Not holding my breath.
Congratulations on your govt job!

--break break---

USMC et al,

Indignation over my 'hobby pilot' remark is your choice. If the shoe fits, the shoe fits. What I need to reiterate, as it may have caused a misunderstanding, is that I'm not referring to one's ability to perform said duties or to behave oneself professionally in a workplace setting. Military background or not, this is not what I'm driving at. Simply put, if you do NOT primarily rely on the monetary compensation of a particular vocational pursuit, you are a hobby worker. You may feel you owe nobody anything, but people in that category erode and hinder the peer's ability to attain living compensation for the pursuit of their vocation. Nobody is saying being a hobby pilot makes you sub-par in the performance of the duties, it just undercuts others ability to bring home the bacon. In 'eff you I got mine America' this might be par for the course, and even of no moral objection to you; I just happen to disagree with it and consider it the fundamental source of the problem.

Because something is so "cool" to do, it pays crap. Some manage a way of dealing with that pesky "making a livelihood" aspect and get to still do it for the "coolness" factor. Ergo, it's a HOBBY. I'm not extrapolating anything, this is as simple a definition as it gets. But adjudicating on others that it's on them to figure out a way to afford their "profession" is quite literally diluting the value of their labor. This only floats around circles where "eff you I got mine" is embraced, so you do the math.

This actually reminds me of similar arguments made against having "Guard babies" in the Reserve Components. Only well-to-do separating O-3 and O-4s should be allowed the "priviledge" of serving their country in a fighting capacity because they could afford to do it on the heels of 10 years of sweet govt cheese. Meanwhile the Lts and junior Capts are there hacking the mish, giving the service a heck of lot longer shelf life than the separating major, and here comes these separating folks, elbows-DEPLOY boldface, storming in on a fat savings account, making remarks that border on openly questioning the motivations behind these broke Reservists attempting to balance their service commitments with paying the bills for their family. A mile in my shoes brother. Insulting? Yeah economic attrition warfare is what I find insulting from the well-to-do crowd. Hobby pilot is right.

EDIT to Add: I re-read the post and want to make sure you don't misunderstand my position as antagonizing or dismissing your life accomplishments. I just feel passionately about socio-economics and their place in our workplace, and I do feel pilots who do not rely on their pilot jobs as a primary source of income are not a positive input to the attainment of a livelihood for the median worker and, as socialistic as it may ring for some, some sense of social equity should exist when making these "vocational" choices.