Thanks Brian
 

Thanks Brian. ;) Looking forward to our next debate.

Skyhigh

This might have been your experience. It was/is certainly not mine.

USMCFLYR

Originally posted by Skyhigh:
Sir please explain why you are keeping your credentials current? I thought you were out for good?:rolleyes:

http://neoavatara.com/blog/wp-conten...ootinmouth.jpg

I'd say it's "just in case" that brass ring happens to magically drop out of the sky at the major airlines again.

Sky has always said that he'd be back if the circumstances were right. He'd be a fool to not be prepared if that ever happens.

If conditions change
 

You never know what fate will bring your way. I have over 20 years invested into aviation but can not work for 20K anymore. If circumstances change I will be there but I will not commute half way across the nation to make less than a mailman.

At least it is an excuse to stay flying. :)

Skyhigh

Regionals
 

USMCFLYR,

You always made a good living flying the best of the best with ample benefits to take care of you. Try flying for the regionals at $492 of take home pay every two weeks. Nine leg 16 hour days and a crummy hotel at the end of it all. :mad:

No good !! Boring. No job satisfaction as you punch out approach after approach all day long.

"Gear down" "Flaps 15" "Landing checklist" over and over and over again.

Airplane swap!! "Origination checklist" "before start checklist" "after start checklist" "Before taxi Check list" "After taxi checklist to the line" You get the picture.

Skyhigh

Waiting
 

I am waiting for you or DE727UPS to pull me into the big time. :) I have to fly at least 50 hours a year to maintain currency. ;) However I can not afford to waste another year at new hire wages for another regional or dead end start up.

Also I am not going to fly overseas. I need to be home more than once every two months. I have a family to support. They are happy where and how we live. I can not mess that up for just anything.

Skyhigh

Sky:
I read your post again and I didn't see where you quantified your comment that is was solely expressing views of Regional Airline flying. Your first post seem to lump ALL flying careers into your singular view of doom and desperation.
I pointed out a different experience of aviation. As you always say Sky - my view is just as pertinent as yours. I'm new to professional aviation, but even since leaving my easy life where everything was 'given' to me as you have pointed out before, things are still not approaching the end of the world. I know that you don't believe there can a balance in a career in aviation, but I think you are wrong. Maybe the key word in your last post above was job satisfaction. Maybe you were never going to find job satisfaction in aviation :( I'm sorry for that.

USMCFLYR

Jobs
 

USMCFLYR,

I took the jobs that were offered. Most were on the poor side of the equation. You have enjoyed better situations. All I can say is that you should consider a mile in my shoes before you make judgments.

You have only exchanged one government job for another. I can assure you that the private sector is not nearly as financially rewarding or secure however I bet you already know that since you did not pursue an airline career.

It is possible that you will never know what a true sweat shop job in aviation is really like. All the better for you. I can tell you that a legacy airline job is much better than that of a regional. Longer legs, more money and better conditions all around.

I liked my job well enough to endure hardships and sacrifices that a plumber would not. My last job was the best. One leg a day usually and a good hotel at the end. Too bad.

Heaven and hell in the airlines is a measure of only a few degrees. We wear the same uniforms fly similar craft on the same routes. However one goes home to a nice upper middle class neighborhood the other to a bunk in a crash pad with six other pilots.

Aviation is becoming more turbulent every year. Mergers, shutdowns, layoffs. A 25 year old pilot could have as many as 40 years in the industry. That is plenty long enough to be tossed out and have to start over many times. It is unlikely that modern careers can go unscathed.

A hero one day could be someones FO tomorrow and the guy on the street the chief pilot at the next great start up next week. It is unlikely that I will ever find my place in the sun however fortunes can change in an instant. I still have reason for hope in that.

In any case I can not afford to waste any more years on dead ends. I have seen the results of that in my past co-workers and for the sake of my family have taken a different course.

Skyhigh

Frickin' awesome.

That describes my military career, too! Sure beats actually having to work.

Who is judging you Sky? Just because I think that you are unnecessarily negative on professional aviation? That has nothing to do with judging you and not having taken the same path in aviation in you. It comes from reading a few years of your ramblings. You know that I have said many times that I agree with much of what you say and that if your true purpose was to teach young pilots about the dangers of professional aviation that you would reach many more ears if you were not so extremist in your negativity. Others have mentioned it too. Your one-sded, unbending view turns more away from your worthwhile message than it does get through to them - IMO.

Having never wanted to be an airline pilot, I didn't have very far to look to cement my decision to not pursue an airline career no matter how crazy my peers thought I was - then or now. So I went from one gov't job to another. Is it your opinion that I haven't really "lived life" because of it? I might as well say that since you nevered in the military that you have no love of country and are selfish for only chasing the all-mighty dollar in your pursuit of wealth. You know nothing of sacrifice for a greater good. But I won;'t becuse it is just as much a statement made of fancy as yours' when you have belittled me in the past for my career path.

Absolutely possible (darn near certain!) that I'll never know what it is like to fly at a Regional. Does that mean that I can't point out the good of aviation? Is it possible that you will never have a good job in the aviation sector (you say you haven't in your long career), but you are still able to point out ONLY the negatives. Why it that Sky? Different rules for you since you had it so rough?

As far as your last few paragraphs - right on. Turbulent - absolutely. Changing fortunes - almost certain. Top of the heap one day, someone's FO the next - could happen.
Sounds like the ups and downs, uncertainty, and luck of the draw do what you can to help yourself, cycle of LIFE. I'm sure that being a proerty manager and small beef operation is the most sure thing in the world and no one has ever fallen on hard times in that industry; or could it be that YOU are having good luck there and others aren't?

USMCFLYR

Skyhigh,

I've just got one question for you. In the mid 90's the military was aggressively hiring pilots. What stopped you?

I am also kind of shocked to hear the government sector is now paying better than the private sector for pilots. Wow what a paradigm shift I think that once again I will need to see some actual numbers.

Positive things
 

USMCFLYR,

Asking me to produce some positives about aviation is like asking an EX in divorce court to say a few nice things about their spouse who is suing you for divorce so that they can take your assents and run away with someone else.

I don't have anything nice to say right now. I spent 25 years in this marriage to my career and am sure that at one time I was brimming with love for it but after being abused and disappointed continuously for over two decades is it kind of hard to conjure up some positives.

I was faithful and gave it everything I had. I passed every check ride, written test and always scored in the top of the class. I was a good employee. Rarely called in sick. Always gave significant notice whenever I left for another job. I have a stack of old letters of recommendation from nearly every place I worked at. I never quit nor gave up my faith.

In return it killed my friends, impoverished and humiliated me and never failed to let me down at the moments when I needed my career to pull through the most. I never made much more than 20K per year and was constantly shown by my employers that I was worthless through abusive treatment, a general lack of personal respect and cruel low wages. I have endured periods of homelessness due to my career. I watched my friends go through the same things to similar results. Most quit long ago.

Of the few peers of mine who are still doing it and have accomplished something they all have had to give considerable concessions from their personal lives. Many have forgone spouses, avoided accumulation of an estate and have denied themselves a personal life to satisfy the demands of aviation. Others have given up their homeland and everyone and everything they knew to remain in the saddle.

If I have learned one thing it is a that aviation eventually gives up all to those who ardently pursue it. It usually comes six months after you really don't want the job anymore. I have been able to eventually get every single job I ever wanted in aviation but one. The one that really mattered. The job that I made all the previous sacrifices for. I am sure that once I have completely moved on sold my plane and boxed up all my aviation stuff my EX will come knocking again offering a once dream job that by then will hold little value.


Skyhigh

In reference to your comment regarding fate and personal control. I do not think that aviation and most everything else are the same. As pilots our career progression lies in the hands of others. You could be the best pilot on the line or the worse and you will be eligible for promotion when and only when your number comes up. If the company goes under everyone has to start completely over again.

In business you have much more control over your fate and your professional value is transportable. My success or failure largely rests in my hands. Sure a bad economy or a change in interest rates can have a negative result however I have the ability to respond. My efforts can and do make a difference in my outcome. In business when changing jobs often it is to a better position with more wages and not back to the mail room as with the airlines.

Pilots have little control or influence over their fate.

Peace !

Usmcflyr
 

Ask USMCFLYR. I bet he made more as a military officer than most legacy captains. I bet his current job pays much more than a new hire at a regional and has real benefits too.

or were you being ironic?

I approached the military at the time I graduated from college and they were not hiring. Most of the ROTC guys who were offered training slots got the boot prior to starting. By the time the military began hiring pilots I was already on my way in the civilian route. Why would I have chosen the military at that point when FAPA was telling us all in Career Pilot magazine that we would be rock star legacy airline pilots in just a few years?

Skyhigh

Military pays scales are available on the web.
Did you just say that I made MORE as a militry officer than a Legacy captain?
At least in MY timeframe when my peers and seniors were getting out of the military to go to the airlines, it took about 3 years as an FO to make back what you were making in the military and then QUICKLY outpaced. That is WHY people were leaving the military for the airlines - and because they were tired of deploying.
Edit: I just did the min pay for a Delta CA on the DC-9 at 5 years.
WAY MORE than I was making when I retired!

As far as my current job paying more than a Regional New hire....well I certainly hope so!
There isn't anyone getting hired here with 1000 hrs of experience that I have come across. I couldn't beleive the level of experience of the newly hired pilots that I met in my P135 Indoc class.
Why did you go from comparing my militry salary to a Legacy Captin and then in the next breath compare my new gov't salary to a Regional new hire? Were you trying to make a specific point?
Were you trying to say that after a career in the military I would bethe same as a legacy Captain, but as a gov't new hire I am the same as a Regional new hire? The benefits are a plus of this job. It was certainly one of the draws for me.

How do you possibly have stats on MOST of the ROTC guys getting booted prior to training Sky?
Are you making a sweeping statement again without any proof :rolleyes:
Do you mean the few ROTC guys that you might have known in college?

The military is ALWAYS hiring Sky.
What you meant is that you were not competitive enough during the time that you looked into the military for a pilot's slot.

Why would you have chosen the military? I don't know - wanting to be part of something BIGGER than yourself and the pursuit of money? A sense of duty? A desire to give something back to your country? There are many reasons that one might decide to join the military and leave even a well paying civilian job behind. Pat Tillman would be one example.

USMCFLYR

Military?
 

USMCFLYR,

I have always said join the military for the military not because you think it will be a good career move in regards to an airline career. I came from a military family and my brother and I both did not have the desire to serve.

I should have clarified that of the ROTC guys in my college aviation program most were not given the pilot training that they were promised. In addition the military cleaned house just after Desert Storm and of the few who did make it through training were given an early out.

Looking back however had it been available I think the military would have been a good choice. Not for the flying but the stable income, benefits and for the ability to serve. My brother and I had the military shoved down our throats our entire lives and could not see the benefits through our desire to go against the wishes of our parents.

When you add it all up military pilots do very well in comparison to civilian pilots. I wish I had pursued it more.

Skyhigh

RIGHT and Playboy magazine claims that all I have to do to get lucky with a bunny is wear such and such cologne.

Really,REALLY?:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:I will be here for you Sky. I think this would be more fun with a couple of pints to loosen the tongue. Don't you think? Happy holidays.

Joke
 

[/QUOTE]

Hoss,

It was a joke. FAPA also told us that a career at the majors was worth 10.5 million too. Before APC accurate information was difficult to come by. All we had was Kit Darby. :)

Skyhigh

Hey thanks man
 

Right on !!

I really think that you and I will be good friends. :)

Skyhigh

Does this mean that I am not going to have a Playboy Bunny for a girlfriend?:confused:

Bunny
 

I don't think your wife would like that anyway. ;)

Skyhigh

Discretion is the key to a happy marriage.