For Skyhigh...
04-18-2012, 06:14 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 158
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Flug -
Feel free to refute any of my incomprehensible posts with facts.
If you can't understand me - maybe you just don't speak Marine.
Also - are you really trying to say that being balanced is a bad thing?
USMCFLYR
Feel free to refute any of my incomprehensible posts with facts.
If you can't understand me - maybe you just don't speak Marine.
Also - are you really trying to say that being balanced is a bad thing?
USMCFLYR
You just can't lay off the parsing and spinning of people's words.
04-18-2012, 06:49 AM
#22
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
My mistake
Originally Posted by Rnav
I actually believe that companies like Alaska waive the carrot in front of Horizon employees like Skyhigh is saying. Plenty of companies do it. The government agency i work for does the same crap.
But with that being said, if those employees know that's how the companies operate the employees shouldn't pin their hopes on working for Alaska. Apply overseas or somewhere else local. To sit there and take the abuse in hopes of being one of the few that get the call is stupid. I don't think it needs to be said that the legacies and local US airlines suck when it comes to treatment of employees.
But with that being said, if those employees know that's how the companies operate the employees shouldn't pin their hopes on working for Alaska. Apply overseas or somewhere else local. To sit there and take the abuse in hopes of being one of the few that get the call is stupid. I don't think it needs to be said that the legacies and local US airlines suck when it comes to treatment of employees.
Horizon Air is where my career progression died. I was told by an Alaska Airlines captain that if I wanted to go to Alaska that I had better "fly for Horizon". I never wanted to work there but this was a sitting captain who was telling me this, so I did it. He didn't know any better. The last time he had to get an aviation job was in the 1970's.
Two days into ground school I was told that no one goes to Alaska Airlines from Horizon Air. Not the pilots, flight attendants, ground crew or gate agents. Alaska Airlines, as an unspoken policy, rarely hired anyone from Horizon Air.
To make matters worse if I left Horizon Air before the two year training contract was up or if I had a blemish of any kind on my record while at Horizon Air it would assure that I would never get hired by Alaska Airlines. Essentially I was stuck at the one place where I was virtually assured to never make it to my dream from and had to appear as though I was happy about it.
Lastly in the airline world Horizon Air is a tiny little regional out in the sticks. The company hates growth. Upgrade is very slow. Pilots were not leaving in droves to go to the majors. There were few bread crumbs to follow. Most careers ran out of steam there and died. Of those who did leave it was usually to pursue other aspirations outside of aviation since it becomes clear that Horizon Air is a career black hole where the gravitational pull is powerful to overcome.
Lesson 1: Don't work for Horizon Air if you wish to fly for Alaska Airlines.
Lesson 2: Don't take career advice from a senior airline captain. Their information is as fresh as the day they got hired years ago.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 04-18-2012 at 07:02 AM.
04-18-2012, 07:59 AM
#23
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Young success
The airlines love young success. If it takes you 12 years to upgrade you might as well get comfortable. The ideal is to upgrade by your mid to upper 20's and be the captain of a jet before 30.
We all start out with those aspirations. Aviation however is on a different schedule. Recessions, shutdowns and hiring trends ebb and tide like the seasons. Start your career when the tide is going out and your dreams might be dead before you even get started.
To someone in HR who looks at a resume with extended periods in the right seat somehow makes the applicant seem ineffective or even defective. (Applicant "A" is a 38 year old with 1000 hours of part 121 PIC while applicant "B" is 28.) Circumstances surrounding the pace of upgrade are largely out of the pilots control but it still looks bad. It leaves the evaluator wondering what is wrong with you.
In addition the added years to ones resume offers more opportunities for blemishes to show up. Perhaps you have gained weight or are experiencing some typical male pattern baldness. A wedding can reduce ones flexibility in their life choices. Maybe a health issue pops up or bust a check ride. A million little things can come along and tip the scales ever so slightly in the wrong direction as we get older.
Getting stuck at Horizon Air exposes one to many of these ills. Before you know it you are 40 and a new turbine captain. A competitive disadvantage over the 28 year old RJ PIC from a crummy east coast airline that is experiencing explosive growth.
Competition is fierce at the legacy airlines. Horizon Air is not the place to make the leap to the big time. I wish I had known that long ago.
Skyhigh
We all start out with those aspirations. Aviation however is on a different schedule. Recessions, shutdowns and hiring trends ebb and tide like the seasons. Start your career when the tide is going out and your dreams might be dead before you even get started.
To someone in HR who looks at a resume with extended periods in the right seat somehow makes the applicant seem ineffective or even defective. (Applicant "A" is a 38 year old with 1000 hours of part 121 PIC while applicant "B" is 28.) Circumstances surrounding the pace of upgrade are largely out of the pilots control but it still looks bad. It leaves the evaluator wondering what is wrong with you.
In addition the added years to ones resume offers more opportunities for blemishes to show up. Perhaps you have gained weight or are experiencing some typical male pattern baldness. A wedding can reduce ones flexibility in their life choices. Maybe a health issue pops up or bust a check ride. A million little things can come along and tip the scales ever so slightly in the wrong direction as we get older.
Getting stuck at Horizon Air exposes one to many of these ills. Before you know it you are 40 and a new turbine captain. A competitive disadvantage over the 28 year old RJ PIC from a crummy east coast airline that is experiencing explosive growth.
Competition is fierce at the legacy airlines. Horizon Air is not the place to make the leap to the big time. I wish I had known that long ago.
Skyhigh
04-18-2012, 08:00 AM
#24
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Amway
Originally Posted by Fluglehrer
Sky,
Lay off the barbituates. This post was too much of a downer -- you accurately described my recent past and probable future!
The great part of flying is what I quoted from you above: the pilots you meet and the stories you hear. My workplace is full of pilots with failed airline dreams, or more accurately, pilots who weighed the probability of progressing from their unsatisfactory life at a regional airline to a good life at a legacy airline and found the probability not worth the sacrifice.
We've got great people where I work, and I really enjoy working with them and talking with them. Besides the ex-regional pilots we also have a bunch of ex-military pilots (Dutch, German, US, and even a Romanian MiG driver). It's an eclectic and very interesting group, and they're a lot of fun to be around.
Well, the only reason I'm critiquing you here is to satisfy USMCFLYR, who wants me to be "balanced". I think he's a little off-kilter himself, and was nearly incomprehensible in his banter with GoPats on a recent thread, but try to humor him -- as a former Marine I'm sure he finds nearly everything around him incomprehensible.
You have a positive role here Sky. Without you and a few others, this place might be mistaken for an Amway meeting (not that there is anything wrong with Amway, which is just one of the companies I offer you in my multi-level marketing empire
).
Lay off the barbituates. This post was too much of a downer -- you accurately described my recent past and probable future!
The great part of flying is what I quoted from you above: the pilots you meet and the stories you hear. My workplace is full of pilots with failed airline dreams, or more accurately, pilots who weighed the probability of progressing from their unsatisfactory life at a regional airline to a good life at a legacy airline and found the probability not worth the sacrifice.
We've got great people where I work, and I really enjoy working with them and talking with them. Besides the ex-regional pilots we also have a bunch of ex-military pilots (Dutch, German, US, and even a Romanian MiG driver). It's an eclectic and very interesting group, and they're a lot of fun to be around.
Well, the only reason I'm critiquing you here is to satisfy USMCFLYR, who wants me to be "balanced". I think he's a little off-kilter himself, and was nearly incomprehensible in his banter with GoPats on a recent thread, but try to humor him -- as a former Marine I'm sure he finds nearly everything around him incomprehensible.
You have a positive role here Sky. Without you and a few others, this place might be mistaken for an Amway meeting (not that there is anything wrong with Amway, which is just one of the companies I offer you in my multi-level marketing empire
).Skyhigh
04-18-2012, 05:04 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by GoPats
You crack me up. You really do.
You just can't lay off the parsing and spinning of people's words.
You just can't lay off the parsing and spinning of people's words.
I enjoy the forums as you do.
I don't see any spin though.
Seems people are easy with the words when they don't provide any facts.
Remember the Washington State regarding $70k as below the poverty line bit?
And you call MY posts spin?
Now that cracks me up.
USMCFLYR
Last edited by USMCFLYR; 04-18-2012 at 06:26 PM.
04-18-2012, 05:44 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 158
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Rnav,
Horizon Air is where my career progression died. I was told by an Alaska Airlines captain that if I wanted to go to Alaska that I had better "fly for Horizon". I never wanted to work there but this was a sitting captain who was telling me this, so I did it. He didn't know any better. The last time he had to get an aviation job was in the 1970's.
Two days into ground school I was told that no one goes to Alaska Airlines from Horizon Air. Not the pilots, flight attendants, ground crew or gate agents. Alaska Airlines, as an unspoken policy, rarely hired anyone from Horizon Air.
To make matters worse if I left Horizon Air before the two year training contract was up or if I had a blemish of any kind on my record while at Horizon Air it would assure that I would never get hired by Alaska Airlines. Essentially I was stuck at the one place where I was virtually assured to never make it to my dream from and had to appear as though I was happy about it.
Lastly in the airline world Horizon Air is a tiny little regional out in the sticks. The company hates growth. Upgrade is very slow. Pilots were not leaving in droves to go to the majors. There were few bread crumbs to follow. Most careers ran out of steam there and died. Of those who did leave it was usually to pursue other aspirations outside of aviation since it becomes clear that Horizon Air is a career black hole where the gravitational pull is powerful to overcome.
Lesson 1: Don't work for Horizon Air if you wish to fly for Alaska Airlines.
Lesson 2: Don't take career advice from a senior airline captain. Their information is as fresh as the day they got hired years ago.
Skyhigh
Horizon Air is where my career progression died. I was told by an Alaska Airlines captain that if I wanted to go to Alaska that I had better "fly for Horizon". I never wanted to work there but this was a sitting captain who was telling me this, so I did it. He didn't know any better. The last time he had to get an aviation job was in the 1970's.
Two days into ground school I was told that no one goes to Alaska Airlines from Horizon Air. Not the pilots, flight attendants, ground crew or gate agents. Alaska Airlines, as an unspoken policy, rarely hired anyone from Horizon Air.
To make matters worse if I left Horizon Air before the two year training contract was up or if I had a blemish of any kind on my record while at Horizon Air it would assure that I would never get hired by Alaska Airlines. Essentially I was stuck at the one place where I was virtually assured to never make it to my dream from and had to appear as though I was happy about it.
Lastly in the airline world Horizon Air is a tiny little regional out in the sticks. The company hates growth. Upgrade is very slow. Pilots were not leaving in droves to go to the majors. There were few bread crumbs to follow. Most careers ran out of steam there and died. Of those who did leave it was usually to pursue other aspirations outside of aviation since it becomes clear that Horizon Air is a career black hole where the gravitational pull is powerful to overcome.
Lesson 1: Don't work for Horizon Air if you wish to fly for Alaska Airlines.
Lesson 2: Don't take career advice from a senior airline captain. Their information is as fresh as the day they got hired years ago.
Skyhigh
I remember during my "commuter" job search days in the early-mid 90s, we were hearing a story about Horizon and its FOs. There was no internet of course back then and I didn't know anyone at Horizon so it was hard to verify.
Did they have a situation where they found out that a number of their new FOs with families were applying for, and receiving, food stamps?
The story went that as soon as the company caught wind of it, they bumped up their annual salary by a couple of hundred bucks or so which put them over the gov't support threshold.
That was just so awful it stuck with me.
04-19-2012, 06:28 AM
#27
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Skywest
Originally Posted by GoPats
You might know something about this.
I remember during my "commuter" job search days in the early-mid 90s, we were hearing a story about Horizon and its FOs. There was no internet of course back then and I didn't know anyone at Horizon so it was hard to verify.
Did they have a situation where they found out that a number of their new FOs with families were applying for, and receiving, food stamps?
The story went that as soon as the company caught wind of it, they bumped up their annual salary by a couple of hundred bucks or so which put them over the gov't support threshold.
That was just so awful it stuck with me.
I remember during my "commuter" job search days in the early-mid 90s, we were hearing a story about Horizon and its FOs. There was no internet of course back then and I didn't know anyone at Horizon so it was hard to verify.
Did they have a situation where they found out that a number of their new FOs with families were applying for, and receiving, food stamps?
The story went that as soon as the company caught wind of it, they bumped up their annual salary by a couple of hundred bucks or so which put them over the gov't support threshold.
That was just so awful it stuck with me.
Most of the pilots I have worked with are experts at seeking government assistance. They know how to get food stamps, the best way to approach unemployment insurance and how to squeeze the most out of the Work Force Investment Act.
When that story first began to circulate it did not seem all that unusual.
Skyhigh
04-22-2012, 07:12 AM
#28
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Excused
I believe that most who venture into aviation today are from middle to upper middle class suburban families. They go to state colleges and plan for a civilian career. It is natural for them to wish to live as adults in a manner that is similar to their own upbringing. A few brief years of sacrifice after college is acceptable but a decade or more is not. Most of us have the same life schedule to follow; college, career, marriage/spouse home family. Increasingly aviation is making it difficult to achieve the personal life accomplishments that are essential for most to feel as though they are fulfilling their overall life goals.
In the current climate most who reach their second year in a regional begin to painfully understand that the situation that they have gotten themselves into most likely will lead to a worse standard of living than what their parents had and that perhaps supporting and maintaining a family will be quite difficult. The possible salvation of making it to a good legacy airline is the goal but for most I believe that it becomes easy to see early on that those seats are not available for most and even then it seems like more of the same. The line between the legacy airlines and regional airlines is getting blurry as the two career paths come closer together with each downturn.
I write to the pilots who are starting out today. Who hold the same values, concerns and needs as I. Who dream of starting a family, owning a home and of being there to enjoy it. I believe that in the past those things were more easily acquired while working as an airline pilot. I wish we had APC when I was in college. People need to know what they really are getting into and they need to be able to get into the mindset of someone who is perhaps 20 years their senior so that they can better anticipate what their needs will be by then.
I understand that many who read my comments here are much older than 25. Perhaps they even already hold good positions at a legacy airline. That is great. No one here especially me wishes to tarnish your accomplishments. However I also do not think you are in a position to understand what the pilots who are starting out today have to go through. What their odds are of making it to your place of control, compensation and satisfaction are. What you have is enviable indeed but also the sirens song that leads a generation into peril. My intent is to be a voice against the unintended seduction of those who are at the upper tiers of the profession and perhaps do not realize that the rope has been pulled up behind them. I am sorry if what I write offends you however it is not meant for your audience.
My aim is to let others who share a similar experience as I did and who hold the same wants and needs as I had when I was in their shoes know that there are alternatives. I am sure that many have silently come to the same conclusions and could use some external validation to the sinking feeling that begins a few years into their first regional airline. So I suggest to those who are from different paths and perspectives in this industry that my message is not intended for you nor are you in a position to benefit. As such you are excused from the conversation.
Skyhigh
In the current climate most who reach their second year in a regional begin to painfully understand that the situation that they have gotten themselves into most likely will lead to a worse standard of living than what their parents had and that perhaps supporting and maintaining a family will be quite difficult. The possible salvation of making it to a good legacy airline is the goal but for most I believe that it becomes easy to see early on that those seats are not available for most and even then it seems like more of the same. The line between the legacy airlines and regional airlines is getting blurry as the two career paths come closer together with each downturn.
I write to the pilots who are starting out today. Who hold the same values, concerns and needs as I. Who dream of starting a family, owning a home and of being there to enjoy it. I believe that in the past those things were more easily acquired while working as an airline pilot. I wish we had APC when I was in college. People need to know what they really are getting into and they need to be able to get into the mindset of someone who is perhaps 20 years their senior so that they can better anticipate what their needs will be by then.
I understand that many who read my comments here are much older than 25. Perhaps they even already hold good positions at a legacy airline. That is great. No one here especially me wishes to tarnish your accomplishments. However I also do not think you are in a position to understand what the pilots who are starting out today have to go through. What their odds are of making it to your place of control, compensation and satisfaction are. What you have is enviable indeed but also the sirens song that leads a generation into peril. My intent is to be a voice against the unintended seduction of those who are at the upper tiers of the profession and perhaps do not realize that the rope has been pulled up behind them. I am sorry if what I write offends you however it is not meant for your audience.
My aim is to let others who share a similar experience as I did and who hold the same wants and needs as I had when I was in their shoes know that there are alternatives. I am sure that many have silently come to the same conclusions and could use some external validation to the sinking feeling that begins a few years into their first regional airline. So I suggest to those who are from different paths and perspectives in this industry that my message is not intended for you nor are you in a position to benefit. As such you are excused from the conversation.
Skyhigh
04-22-2012, 07:23 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
See Sky - I knew you could do it!
An excellent post with good advice without a single insult, put down, or belittlement!
A good message delivered in a good manner.
Many would be well advised to listen, and take to heart, this post.
Risk/benefit analysis.
Apply it to everything that you do.
USMCFLYR
An excellent post with good advice without a single insult, put down, or belittlement!
A good message delivered in a good manner.
Many would be well advised to listen, and take to heart, this post.
Risk/benefit analysis.
Apply it to everything that you do.
USMCFLYR
04-22-2012, 07:49 AM
#30
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Thanks
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
See Sky - I knew you could do it!
An excellent post with good advice without a single insult, put down, or belittlement!
A good message delivered in a good manner.
Many would be well advised to listen, and take to heart, this post.
Risk/benefit analysis.
Apply it to everything that you do.
USMCFLYR
An excellent post with good advice without a single insult, put down, or belittlement!
A good message delivered in a good manner.
Many would be well advised to listen, and take to heart, this post.
Risk/benefit analysis.
Apply it to everything that you do.
USMCFLYR
Thanks buddy !! I want you to be happy.
Skyhigh
