AA vs. DAL : "Truth Data" American vs. Delta
06-18-2017, 04:27 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by crewdawg
Honestly, I would go to whichever one allows you to be home based (which is what I did). Commuting SUCKS...driving to work is amazing! Also, you gain a little seniority by living in base. You'll be readily available for premium trips, will hold a line quicker, or you can sit reserve from home. You'll be more likely to take upgrades earlier, knowing you can sit short call at home. I'd gladly give up some seniority and $$$ to not have to commute. No crash pads, no stressing over the jumpseat or making my commute. At the end of the trip, no matter what, I can get in my car and drive home.
I was a 2014 hire at both and ran my numbers based on # of pilots on list, the month after I was hired. Bottom line, I was ~50% at 10 years, top ~25% at 15ish years and top 10% at 20-21 years. First half seniority was slightly better at DAL, last half it was slightly better at AAL. Realize a few things; this accounted for zero growth from DOH, DAL has hired ~3,000 pilots since I was hired and these numbers were pre-AAL/USAir SLI.
Some other things to keep in mind. At DAL, I already hold WB FO and could hold NB Captain, in my home base...both at 90% seniority. I could also hold 73/320 Captain if I wanted to commute to NYC (ref my thoughts on commuting above). I'm fairly sure that, aside from the E190, I would be years away from Captain at AAL. I'm not sure about WB FO at AAL.
I was a 2014 hire at both and ran my numbers based on # of pilots on list, the month after I was hired. Bottom line, I was ~50% at 10 years, top ~25% at 15ish years and top 10% at 20-21 years. First half seniority was slightly better at DAL, last half it was slightly better at AAL. Realize a few things; this accounted for zero growth from DOH, DAL has hired ~3,000 pilots since I was hired and these numbers were pre-AAL/USAir SLI.
Some other things to keep in mind. At DAL, I already hold WB FO and could hold NB Captain, in my home base...both at 90% seniority. I could also hold 73/320 Captain if I wanted to commute to NYC (ref my thoughts on commuting above). I'm fairly sure that, aside from the E190, I would be years away from Captain at AAL. I'm not sure about WB FO at AAL.
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO in LGA, MIA, ORD(barely). About a year away from PHL (current seniority numbers).
Upgrade for 2014 new hires looks like approx. 3-4 yrs to go.
06-18-2017, 05:16 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,191
Number of pilots retiring in five year bands. Not official. Estimate based on information provided by DL and UA buds.
AA. DL. UA
2050+. 36. 352. 139
2045-49. 386. 1365. 513
2040-44. 514. 1276 1000
2035-39. 1082. 1334. 1203
2030-34. 2495. 2175. 2573
UA's significant larger percentage of large w/b a/c makes a more junior number at UA have the value of a higher seniority number at AA.
AA. DL. UA
2050+. 36. 352. 139
2045-49. 386. 1365. 513
2040-44. 514. 1276 1000
2035-39. 1082. 1334. 1203
2030-34. 2495. 2175. 2573
UA's significant larger percentage of large w/b a/c makes a more junior number at UA have the value of a higher seniority number at AA.
06-22-2017, 07:48 AM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 79
Which company do you want to work for? Which offers you the best bases? Best QOL?
At the end of the day your decision is somewhat simple:
1. Where do you wanna live?
2. What do you value?
3. $300,000 here or $300,000 there. That's what you'll be making in a decades time at either carrier barring an industry meltdown.
4. International? Do your research (DL is big on joint ventures).
5. Look at the overall health of the companies financially. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but DL has ~$5-6b in debt. AA is north of $25b in debt. This may prove to be a HUGE factor WHEN our industry heads south. It is a cyclical industry as we all know, to me this is a big deal.
I was hired by USAirways (post merger/pre single ops certificate) as well as Delta. Delta was a no brainer for me in terms of quality of life. I still commute, but I reviewed the above factors and that's how I made my decision. Never once have I looked back. Being hired when I was my seniority at both companies is virtually the same (I keep in contact with the guys I interviewed with at US).
At the end of the day your decision is somewhat simple:
1. Where do you wanna live?
2. What do you value?
3. $300,000 here or $300,000 there. That's what you'll be making in a decades time at either carrier barring an industry meltdown.
4. International? Do your research (DL is big on joint ventures).
5. Look at the overall health of the companies financially. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but DL has ~$5-6b in debt. AA is north of $25b in debt. This may prove to be a HUGE factor WHEN our industry heads south. It is a cyclical industry as we all know, to me this is a big deal.
I was hired by USAirways (post merger/pre single ops certificate) as well as Delta. Delta was a no brainer for me in terms of quality of life. I still commute, but I reviewed the above factors and that's how I made my decision. Never once have I looked back. Being hired when I was my seniority at both companies is virtually the same (I keep in contact with the guys I interviewed with at US).
06-22-2017, 09:54 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Sliceback
Not commuting has a huge value.
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO in LGA, MIA, ORD(barely). About a year away from PHL (current seniority numbers).
Upgrade for 2014 new hires looks like approx. 3-4 yrs to go.
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO in LGA, MIA, ORD(barely). About a year away from PHL (current seniority numbers).
Upgrade for 2014 new hires looks like approx. 3-4 yrs to go.
I am a spring March of 2014 hire at AA. I could hold 76 in bases you listed at AA for 159. At DAL, they are talking about 330, 76-400 at 189 (plus 20%+ PS). Not to mention Capt slots in multiple bases making even more. I bought off on AA's retirement #'s when I had to make decision but looking back, I will never make up the lost $ in extra seniority gains here. As for being hired today, maybe it's different, but in 2014 I made the lesser $ choice looking back
Not crying over spilled milk. I live in base and am very happy, but it's disingenuous to think that retirement #'s are everything
06-22-2017, 10:33 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,661
Originally Posted by AFTrainerGuy
Not exactly apples to apples.
I am a spring March of 2014 hire at AA. I could hold 76 in bases you listed at AA for 159. At DAL, they are talking about 330, 76-400 at 189 (plus 20%+ PS). Not to mention Capt slots in multiple bases making even more. I bought off on AA's retirement #'s when I had to make decision but looking back, I will never make up the lost $ in extra seniority gains here. As for being hired today, maybe it's different, but in 2014 I made the lesser $ choice looking back
Not crying over spilled milk. I live in base and am very happy, but it's disingenuous to think that retirement #'s are everything
I am a spring March of 2014 hire at AA. I could hold 76 in bases you listed at AA for 159. At DAL, they are talking about 330, 76-400 at 189 (plus 20%+ PS). Not to mention Capt slots in multiple bases making even more. I bought off on AA's retirement #'s when I had to make decision but looking back, I will never make up the lost $ in extra seniority gains here. As for being hired today, maybe it's different, but in 2014 I made the lesser $ choice looking back
Not crying over spilled milk. I live in base and am very happy, but it's disingenuous to think that retirement #'s are everything
And even then, you won't be SURE till 1 day short of your retirement.
06-22-2017, 03:14 PM
#16
You scratched my anchor
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,876
Originally Posted by Sliceback
Not commuting has a huge value.
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO In ORD(barely).
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO In ORD(barely).
06-22-2017, 04:19 PM
#17
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by TrollingForFish
Obviously this is a well discussed subject with many passionate opinions, so I'm just gonna drop this analysis file here and let you all tear it to shreds before I weigh in. Its as factual as can be, but some of you will have better data; its as unbiased as can be, but you all are biased; its inconclusive in summary, but the numbers tell a story.
Yes, I'm a nerd, and numbers matter... but hopefully not just to me. If this is a product I can improve with better data for better decisions for my fellow new-hires, then pass that on. (No I'm not gonna run the math for every airline, hire date, person... its all about me really).
Cheers!
If that didn't come through, here's the file again: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...TBfY0RLRHhueTQ
Yes, I'm a nerd, and numbers matter... but hopefully not just to me. If this is a product I can improve with better data for better decisions for my fellow new-hires, then pass that on. (No I'm not gonna run the math for every airline, hire date, person... its all about me really).
Cheers!
If that didn't come through, here's the file again: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...TBfY0RLRHhueTQ
Well, except the typical ego of a Delta pilot lasts forever. :-P
06-22-2017, 05:18 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,191
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
Your numbers are a little deceiving. The most junior guy to be awarded ORD recently was a 1996 hire.... and that was a 737 spot.
The junior guy in ORD is 14,350 ish. March 2016 DOH. 2,250 ish more junior than the guy who just got ORD.
In the last year 28 junior guys have bid into ORD. September 2015 and later new hires. A 2001 DOH isn't typically expectations for a junior guy trying to get to ORD. The unknown is when will the next opportunity come and to what seniority? In the last job run it was 12,100. Future openings are unknown, especially in bases, or bid statuses, that have little movement.
Junior ORD 767 FO is an early 2014 new hire. About 200 after OTS hiring started. A handful of guys just senior to him (300-400 numbers) are also in the bid status.
06-22-2017, 06:29 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Position: 6th place
Posts: 1,826
Originally Posted by Sliceback
Not commuting has a huge value.
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO in LGA, MIA, ORD(barely). About a year away from PHL (current seniority numbers).
Upgrade for 2014 new hires looks like approx. 3-4 yrs to go.
2014 new hires at AA can hold w/b FO in LGA, MIA, ORD(barely). About a year away from PHL (current seniority numbers).
Upgrade for 2014 new hires looks like approx. 3-4 yrs to go.
Not group 3. Group 3 just means the crappy night international flying for a couple more dollars than group 2 and perma-reserve.
You should go DL hands down unless you have planted a stake in DFW or MIA and even then I would still think long and hard about it. I'm a early 2013 airways hire and I am still at least 2 years from 73 captain.
A few more retirements don't mean as much as some make them out to be.
06-23-2017, 03:25 AM
#20
You scratched my anchor
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,876
Originally Posted by Sliceback
Not trying to be deceiving. The most recent award was to a guy around 12,100. 1996 original DOH, 2001 number with AA. I'm guessing an AE f/t.
The junior guy in ORD is 14,350 ish. March 2016 DOH. 2,250 ish more junior than the guy who just got ORD.
In the last year 28 junior guys have bid into ORD. September 2015 and later new hires. A 2001 DOH isn't typically expectations for a junior guy trying to get to ORD. The unknown is when will the next opportunity come and to what seniority? In the last job run it was 12,100. Future openings are unknown, especially in bases, or bid statuses, that have little movement.
Junior ORD 767 FO is an early 2014 new hire. About 200 after OTS hiring started. A handful of guys just senior to him (300-400 numbers) are also in the bid status.
The junior guy in ORD is 14,350 ish. March 2016 DOH. 2,250 ish more junior than the guy who just got ORD.
In the last year 28 junior guys have bid into ORD. September 2015 and later new hires. A 2001 DOH isn't typically expectations for a junior guy trying to get to ORD. The unknown is when will the next opportunity come and to what seniority? In the last job run it was 12,100. Future openings are unknown, especially in bases, or bid statuses, that have little movement.
Junior ORD 767 FO is an early 2014 new hire. About 200 after OTS hiring started. A handful of guys just senior to him (300-400 numbers) are also in the bid status.
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