Originally Posted by Std Deviation (Post 2394371)

DETPILOT...Detroit by chance? I'm from Detroit and learned to fly there. Dad was a tool and die maker at Chrysler. Mom stayed home. Three boys. Not a penny for college or flight training. Grandmother co-signed $2500 loan for my private. Took 3 years to get through CFII because of cash issues. If I didn't have loans and financial help outside of family I wouldn't have made it.

Later I owned a flight school (part 61, non ratings farm). I have 4600 hrs as a primary instructor. Not cookie cutter military/college types learning to fly. All walks of life: zookeeper, chef, lots of cops, EMS, nurses, realtor, funeral director, etc. Since 1991 I've seen maybe 5-10 people who simply couldn't make it. My best student? A stripper (worked at BTs on 8 mile, so I heard). No joke. Nearly unlimited cash. Flew 5 days a week. Private to Commercial in 3 months. Access to cash does matter. Good pilot.

Originally Posted by Nantonaku (Post 2394007)

Apperently you had all your resources handed to you, not everyone in this industry did.

Originally Posted by CoefficientX (Post 2394021)

Money is not the biggest obstacle, that's ridiculous. Ask my parents, they didn't have any. Ask the people in the financial aid office where I obtained grants and student loans.

Originally Posted by CoefficientX (Post 2394021)

I'm quite certain the skill set required to fly airplanes isn't something every human was born with. 3 years of flight instructing taught me that. It's possible some people aren't motivated enough to jump through the hoops airline pilots have had to jump through. It's possible some of us without money took a look around and decided there was a better future out there and figured out a way to make it happen.

Your premise couldn't be more ridiculous.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2394593)

Yes, there is no doubt that there are SOME people who just aren't cut out to fly an airplane. The point, however, is that the MAJORITY of people, given the flight training, would have no problems getting through the training and becoming competent pilots, given the MONEY to make it happen. The biggest reason people with the desire to be a professional pilot don't finish flight training is money. There's really no reason, aside from ego, to be contesting this.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2394593)

....You're either unknowingly (and hilariously) making my point, or you're saying that the funds (grants and loans) were easy for you to come by, in which case congrats. It was not that easy for the rest of us.



Yes, there is no doubt that there are SOME people who just aren't cut out to fly an airplane. The point, however, is that the MAJORITY of people, given the flight training, would have no problems getting through the training and becoming competent pilots, given the MONEY to make it happen. The biggest reason people with the desire to be a professional pilot don't finish flight training is money. There's really no reason, aside from ego, to be contesting this.

Originally Posted by Chakerik (Post 2394622)

I don't think ego has anything to do with anyone contesting your point. Making sweeping statements (ie the majority of people that clean the toilets and such at Newark could make it through all the tests and interviews necessary to become a proficient and competent professional pilot) with absolutely no basis whatsoever is where some of us are getting hung up. You can quantify this how? I agree with you that SOME could. But the majority? Highly unlikely. Just like you can't say given the money every kid could be an engineer or a finance guru. Comes down to different skillsets, personal drive, intelligence etc. Money does not make all else equal.

Originally Posted by CoefficientX (Post 2394617)

There's really no contesting the fact your premise is still ridiculous. It's not an ego thing at all. You're losing me at your insistence of the word majority. A small percentage maybe, the majority, no way. I'd agree that for those who possess the skill set to to become an airline pilot many drop out due to lack of funds but to say the majority of people could do the job makes no sense. Tweak your argument and I might come onboard. As it stands it's ridiculous. Perhaps your definition of a competent pilot is much lower than mine.

Originally Posted by Chakerik (Post 2394622)

I don't think ego has anything to do with anyone contesting your point. Making sweeping statements (ie the majority of people that clean the toilets and such at Newark could make it through all the tests and interviews necessary to become a proficient and competent professional pilot) with absolutely no basis whatsoever is where some of us are getting hung up. You can quantify this how? I agree with you that SOME could. But the majority? Highly unlikely. Just like you can't say given the money every kid could be an engineer or a finance guru. Comes down to different skillsets, personal drive, intelligence etc. Money does not make all else equal.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2394661)

But stop acting like we're somehow better than those working below the wing because we were fortunate enough to scrounge up the money for flight training.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2394661)

Lol, huh?? This assumes that the only people who even begin flight training are those that "possess the skill set" and those that don't possess it don't begin training. What is the skill set? How can one determine what "the skill set" is? There are no barriers to beginning civilian flight training. There are no prerequisites.. other than "Do you have the money?"




I really don't get how you guys are getting so hung up on this. There is a reason you don't need any more than a high school diploma to get a job as a pilot. There are some hefty hurdles to get into med school. There are hefty hurdles to get into law school. You've gotta do some work to get into a good engineering program.

What do you have to do to get into flight school? Cash, card, or check.

Yes, flight school is challenging. Yes, you will have to put some work in. But again, there is a reason you only need a high school diploma and some technical training to get a job as a pilot. It ain't law school. It ain't med school. (Both of which you have to qualify to even get accepted in the first place) The vast majority of people that start flight training to become a pilot, and don't run out of money along the way, are successful.

Yes, this job is amazing. I've wanted to do it since I was a kid and I wouldn't trade it for the world. But stop acting like we're somehow better than those working below the wing because we were fortunate enough to scrounge up the money for flight training.

Originally Posted by Std Deviation (Post 2394473)

I pawned my guitar and amp the day before my private pilot checkride to get the money to pay for it. That ride was $125 in 1989. The same ride today is $450. I miss that Red Fender Strat...:(

On the "even more ashamed" front, I drove without car insurance for 18 months while making $10/hr as a CFI at DET and without working windshield wipers for 6 months (RainX is awesome). I also illegally lived in a storage unit for 45 days on my $7000 a year CFI income (showered at the gym). All true.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2394661)

Lol, huh?? This assumes that the only people who even begin flight training are those that "possess the skill set" and those that don't possess it don't begin training. What is the skill set? How can one determine what "the skill set" is? There are no barriers to beginning civilian flight training. There are no prerequisites.. other than "Do you have the money?"




I really don't get how you guys are getting so hung up on this. There is a reason you don't need any more than a high school diploma to get a job as a pilot. There are some hefty hurdles to get into med school. There are hefty hurdles to get into law school. You've gotta do some work to get into a good engineering program.

What do you have to do to get into flight school? Cash, card, or check.

Yes, flight school is challenging. Yes, you will have to put some work in. But again, there is a reason you only need a high school diploma and some technical training to get a job as a pilot. It ain't law school. It ain't med school. (Both of which you have to qualify to even get accepted in the first place) The vast majority of people that start flight training to become a pilot, and don't run out of money along the way, are successful.

Yes, this job is amazing. I've wanted to do it since I was a kid and I wouldn't trade it for the world. But stop acting like we're somehow better than those working below the wing because we were fortunate enough to scrounge up the money for flight training.

Originally Posted by CoefficientX (Post 2394705)

No where have I said I'm better than anyone. You're being challenged by myself and others because you insist on saying the majority can do the job. Maybe you need to quit relying on automation and actually do some hand flying.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2393702)

Nailed it.




I'll never understand this attitude from fellow pilots. If you want to be blunt about it, the only likely real difference between you and those "no education toilet cleaners" is that you were fortunate enough to have the money/means to pursue this career. If they had the money (and desire) for flight training, most of them would be right where you are. You (and the rest of us) are not that special.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2393748)

Nothing you said negates anything I said up there. Many of those "toilet cleaners", given the opportunity, would make it through a civilian flight training program with just as much "dedication and hard work" and you and I. Unless you were military (I was not), having money was a gigantic piece of the pie. The largest piece of the pie. It may not be what the pilot ego wants to hear, but it's the truth.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2394593)

Yes, there is no doubt that there are SOME people who just aren't cut out to fly an airplane. The point, however, is that the MAJORITY of people, given the flight training, would have no problems getting through the training and becoming competent pilots, given the MONEY to make it happen. The biggest reason people with the desire to be a professional pilot don't finish flight training is money. There's really no reason, aside from ego, to be contesting this.

Originally Posted by Std Deviation (Post 2394371)

DETPILOT... My best student? A stripper (worked at BTs on 8 mile, so I heard). No joke. Nearly unlimited cash. Flew 5 days a week. Private to Commercial in 3 months. Access to cash does matter. Good pilot.

Originally Posted by tizzizzailslf04 (Post 2393702)

I'll never understand this attitude from fellow pilots. If you want to be blunt about it, the only likely real difference between you and those "no education toilet cleaners" is that you were fortunate enough to have the money/means to pursue this career. If they had the money (and desire) for flight training, most of them would be right where you are. You (and the rest of us) are not that special.

Originally Posted by Lemons (Post 2393314)

Some no education toilet cleaners think their jobs are precious and non-replaceable.

Originally Posted by Std Deviation (Post 2394473)

I pawned my guitar and amp the day before my private pilot checkride to get the money to pay for it. That ride was $125 in 1989. The same ride today is $450. I miss that Red Fender Strat...:(

On the "even more ashamed" front, I drove without car insurance for 18 months while making $10/hr as a CFI at DET and without working windshield wipers for 6 months (RainX is awesome). I also illegally lived in a storage unit for 45 days on my $7000 a year CFI income (showered at the gym). All true.

Originally Posted by vroll1800 (Post 2397629)

What is she doing now ? Did she move on to airline or corporate flying position ? Come to think of it, most flying jobs would very likely be a demotion in pay for her. (To have that kind of scratch for an ambitious flight training program.)

Originally Posted by qball (Post 2394480)

(That Strat is probably worth a gozillion bucks these days ) 😜