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Hand Flying policy

Old 11-14-2017, 10:05 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
They grew up and learned their trade hand flying airplanes. They did not learn their trade in a simulator with the autopilot on.
Yup. You learn pretty early on... or should if you want to live... that pulling back on the stick in a stall is a bad tactic. Particularly going full back at FL350 in a 500,000 lb plane.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:42 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by thevagabond View Post
I have yet to meet a STAR or SID which isn't very easy to hand fly. The problem isn't complexity, it's shutting tfu and paying attention to everything going on. Very easy to do.
You're a better pilot than I am. That's why I'm Low Tier.

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Old 11-14-2017, 12:19 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by TheFly View Post
Friend of mine sent this to me.
Once you're hooked on automation, can you turn back?:
https://www.flyingmag.com/technique/...s-steam-gauges
That’s a good read. I wish I could get in a DC-9 sim. It is amazing that students today are learning in just glass. A buddy that’s starting flight school was asking me about iPads for flight planning. I asked him about using a “whizz wheel” and he had no clue.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:17 AM
  #134  
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In the end, when you have an unusual attitude, or stall, or enter windshear/severe turbulence, etc., does the autopilot go “chirp chirp chirp” and turn itself on to take control of the plane and fix the situation? No, it's the other way around. We're supposed to be the final, catch-all backstop. But without the confidence to fly the airplane routinely and easily, how can we?

I'm a year into my first 121 (regional) job, and it's always been a normal progression for me that when I first start flying something new that's a big leap from my previous experience, I start out all nervous and intimidated (sweaty palms, fast heartbeat, tunnel visioned, etc.) and after some time in the new airplane, I get comfortable as it gets routine, i.e., it feels more like driving my car and less like doing a moon landing.

I've always taken this to be the normal progression for everybody learning a skill like this, and that the way to get comfortable is to actually do it. How else could it happen?

Well in my flying at the airline I went along this progression like I always have. I pretty quickly got confident flying visually, while still working on it in IMC. But one weird thing I noticed is that 90% of my Captains handfly 90% of their legs only below 1000 feet or so. (And below 1000 feet, what flying is there left to do? You're given the airplane configured on localizer and glideslope, with no speed changes, flap changes, leveloffs, or even turns to do.) And literally not once have I seen someone handfly in IMC. At first I thought I was seeing a disproportionate sampling, but after months it became clear that this is the consistent reality. And my impression changed from “weird” to “unsettling,” because if this is what they've been doing since day one (and if this is the example FO's are seeing from their Captains, I have no reason to think otherwise) how is anybody getting comfortable flying?

The only answer I can come up with is that they're not. Is there any other explanation?

My airline pays no diligence to the basic skill of flying the plane. I think in all of my training I was required to hand fly one approach in the sim, then was discouraged from handflying on OE and on the line. You see, it “increases workload,” as if it's not our job to be able to take on that workload. It's a phrase that increasingly makes me want to puke, along with “managing the airplane.” (Yes we're supposed to be managers of the airplane/automation, but that's on top of being able to fly it, not instead!) These phrases many times seem like a fig leaf justifying staying scared of flying the plane while ostensibly in command of it.

Is this an acceptable situation?
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:29 AM
  #135  
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As you gain experience you won’t need to hand fly all the time any more than you need to get a feel of driving your car.

I think you answered your own question. Many of us felt exactly like you did but all of us at your level are basically like a 16 or 17 year old who just can’t understand the driving techniques of your parents. Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore. They have the skills and now allow themselves the ability to see and understand all around them instead of just putting all of their focus on one thing.

I’m sure you’re a good pilot and we can all relate but when I was a fresh FO and felt the same as you I was also repeatedly stunned when those same lazy captains would know exactly what to do in situations I had no answer for.

I can only speak for myself but I hand flew as a flight instructor and freight dog. I hand flew all the time as a new jet FO. I’m not afraid of hand flying but my time is better spent considering wake turbulence, windshear, proximity of other aircraft, monitoring FOs, what MELs may affect us, if this station has a good GPU or deice crew or will they need me to remind them to warm up the truck, what reports I need to fill out for a sick passenger or if they used an oxygen bottle for it that needs a MEL write up and how I plan to roll out and taxi in most efficiently. You on the other hand are focused on one thing only. A thing that most beside you mastered long ago.

Last edited by labbats; 11-26-2017 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:52 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by labbats View Post
As you gain experience you won’t need to hand fly all the time any more than you need to get a feel of driving your car.

I think you answered your own question. Many of us felt exactly like you did but all of us at your level are basically like a 16 or 17 year old who just can’t understand the driving techniques of your parents. Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore. They have the skills and now allow themselves the ability to see and understand all around them instead of just putting all of their focus on one thing.

I’m sure you’re a good pilot and we can all relate but when I was a fresh FO and felt the same as you I was also repeatedly stunned when those same lazy captains would know exactly what to do in situations I had no answer for.

I can only speak for myself but I hand flew as a flight instructor and freight dog. I hand flew all the time as a new jet FO. I’m not afraid of hand flying but my time is better spent considering wake turbulence, windshear, proximity of other aircraft, monitoring FOs, what MELs may affect us, if this station has a good GPU or deice crew or will they need me to remind them to warm up the truck, what reports I need to fill out for a sick passenger or if they used an oxygen bottle for it that needs a MEL write up and how I plan to roll out and taxi in most efficiently. You on the other hand are focused on one thing only. A thing that most beside you mastered long ago.
Disagree. Hand flying is a skill that atrophies. The majority of us who handfly a lot spent years hand flying during our formative years as well, yet still understand the need to keep that skill fresh. And, if hand flying is preventing you from thinking about your runway exit or the coffee on ops, then perhaps you need more practice to get back to when it felt like second nature.

There is a noticeable difference in smoothness, SA, landing ability, and confidence between the Captains I fly with who handfly often, and those who never do.

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Old 11-26-2017, 07:43 AM
  #137  
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I'm sure many on this forum will jump on and disagree with me. To each their own, but the fact remains that from those same posts disagreeing with me you illustrate that most pilots side with my viewpoint and not the other.

When 90% of pilots do something is it usually them or the 10% doing it wrong?

Hand fly all you like just don't judge others as less of pilots than you. Or may I suggest you do like I did when I felt that any real pilot would hand fly... I made a game of it and challenged the Captains I enjoyed flying with at my regional to hand fly better than me below 10,000 feet. After seeing most fly better than me I came to my current viewpoint about hand flying.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:37 AM
  #138  
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In the last two years I've noticed there is a lot more "Planting" than slipping it on.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:53 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by labbats View Post
I'm sure many on this forum will jump on and disagree with me. To each their own, but the fact remains that from those same posts disagreeing with me you illustrate that most pilots side with my viewpoint and not the other.

When 90% of pilots do something is it usually them or the 10% doing it wrong?

Hand fly all you like just don't judge others as less of pilots than you. Or may I suggest you do like I did when I felt that any real pilot would hand fly... I made a game of it and challenged the Captains I enjoyed flying with at my regional to hand fly better than me below 10,000 feet. After seeing most fly better than me I came to my current viewpoint about hand flying.
But it's not 90%. It's 90% of the "video game generation." Since I've been at mainline, the majority hand fly more often than not, in that sweet area between 1000agl and 18000. When I was at the regionals, the older, more experienced captains tended to hand fly, while the younger captains tended to be of the "gear up, autopilot on" mentality. Sure, there are notable exceptions, but you can't deny the fact that skills atrophy.

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Old 11-26-2017, 01:37 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by labbats View Post
Those captains have hand flown 1000s of times and don’t need to anymore.
If what you say is true, then that's heartening. But every sign I get is that what I see is the norm (and tacit expectation) for both seats here. Of course we may have different experiences.

When 90% of pilots do something is it usually them or the 10% doing it wrong?
I'm disappointed to see anyone advance this argument. One time 90% of training was to keep the nose up in a stall. 90% of pilots smoked in the cockpit. Etc.

Originally Posted by detpilot View Post
When I was at the regionals, the older, more experienced captains tended to hand fly, while the younger captains tended to be of the "gear up, autopilot on" mentality.
Interesting, my experience is the opposite. Of the little hand flying I see, most is by the younger Captains.

...

Another aspect of all this, besides our duty to maintain proficiency, is... don't people want to fly? I, for one, take pleasure in flying (it's why I took up this job, after all) so it's completely bizarre to me to see the issue framed as doing the minimum to fulfill some unpleasant chore, and as soon as that's checked off, you "don't need to" anymore, with excuses made up to justify it. It just kills me whenever we're doing a visual into some sleepy class C or D, on a clear beautiful day and we're the only ones on frequency, and the other guy still controls the plane like an Etch-a-sketch until 1000 feet. I only don't ask for him to give me those, to avoid being annoying.
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