Hand Flying policy
10-06-2017, 10:18 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: Guppy Capt
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by Dolphinflyer
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.
Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.
Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?
IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.
Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.
Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?
IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.
10-07-2017, 06:22 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Cessna 150
Posts: 655
Originally Posted by Dolphinflyer
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.
Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.
Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?
IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.
Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.
Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?
IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.
Second, amen! The fastest button pushers cannot fix any problem faster than the chick/dude/non gender specific/non binary human who just turns the automation off.
10-07-2017, 07:10 AM
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by Dolphinflyer
Totally agree, amazed at a couple of other posts, but not surprised given the weak arse finesse skills that I've witnessed from the right and left seats over 25+ years of legacy flying.
Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.
Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?
IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.
Let's cover one for example, energy management. From what I've seen in the cockpit, I doubt 75% of this group could estimate a point to pull the throttles to idle at FL390 and glide without touching the throttles to a 3K-2K Flap extension point at the destination without emailing Kit Darby for a follow up Hug/Spoon Session on GoGo Internet.
Another mentioned the 737 autopilot. This one has me amazed. From experience, a worthy adversary in flying skills without a brain were the 777/767/757 autopilots. The 737? YGBSM. That piece of east European programmed garbage is less smooth than if I tied 4 kinds of sausages to each side of the yoke and each throttle and had my Yellow Lab attempt to fly it. Seriously dude, congratulations if your intent was a troll job, but other than that, really?
IMHO, the idea is to have the passengers not have a clue to what phase of flight they are in between gear up and gear down. The 737 Autopilot? I think an Aztec AP might be smoother.
When people want to go fly and have fun and to better themselves as pilots, do they see how high they can climb and maintain the best climb speed all the way to altitude or do they do practice approaches and landings to perfect their skill? What is so hard and or enjoyable about hand flying to cruise? Are you really better than George? I doubt it, and most of the time I can tell when the autopilot isn't on because turns often feel like turns on a train. What about busy airports with lots of traffic to look for and complex departures to fly? I would think again that George is better than the average joe about maintaining proper course and if you are concentrating on flying, you aren't looking outside as much.
Now, when on descent/approach, I can see wanting to hand fly. Again, flying a perfect approach and nailing the landing is fun. If the autopilot does all the work, what gratification do you get from it? These are also the more difficult flying skills which one would need in the event you do need to hand fly if there are issues and you have to turn off the AP.
......
10-07-2017, 07:47 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
My personal hand flying policy?
Departure:
AP on above 200' AGL (A/C limitation) and when it's not fun anymore (judgment call). Couple of turns after lift off? Sure, I'll hand fly it up to 10,000. Flying 60 miles in a straight line, eh, AP on once established to the fix, airplane trimmed and I'm bored.
Arrival:
AP off when established on the approach, assuming it's VMC and the workload for the other pilot isn't especially high.
Departure:
AP on above 200' AGL (A/C limitation) and when it's not fun anymore (judgment call). Couple of turns after lift off? Sure, I'll hand fly it up to 10,000. Flying 60 miles in a straight line, eh, AP on once established to the fix, airplane trimmed and I'm bored.
Arrival:
AP off when established on the approach, assuming it's VMC and the workload for the other pilot isn't especially high.
10-07-2017, 08:27 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by foumanchu
Here is my train of thought on autopilot usage, for what it's worth.
When people want to go fly and have fun and to better themselves as pilots, do they see how high they can climb and maintain the best climb speed all the way to altitude or do they do practice approaches and landings to perfect their skill? What is so hard and or enjoyable about hand flying to cruise? Are you really better than George? I doubt it, and most of the time I can tell when the autopilot isn't on because turns often feel like turns on a train. What about busy airports with lots of traffic to look for and complex departures to fly? I would think again that George is better than the average joe about maintaining proper course and if you are concentrating on flying, you aren't looking outside as much.
Now, when on descent/approach, I can see wanting to hand fly. Again, flying a perfect approach and nailing the landing is fun. If the autopilot does all the work, what gratification do you get from it? These are also the more difficult flying skills which one would need in the event you do need to hand fly if there are issues and you have to turn off the AP.
......
When people want to go fly and have fun and to better themselves as pilots, do they see how high they can climb and maintain the best climb speed all the way to altitude or do they do practice approaches and landings to perfect their skill? What is so hard and or enjoyable about hand flying to cruise? Are you really better than George? I doubt it, and most of the time I can tell when the autopilot isn't on because turns often feel like turns on a train. What about busy airports with lots of traffic to look for and complex departures to fly? I would think again that George is better than the average joe about maintaining proper course and if you are concentrating on flying, you aren't looking outside as much.
Now, when on descent/approach, I can see wanting to hand fly. Again, flying a perfect approach and nailing the landing is fun. If the autopilot does all the work, what gratification do you get from it? These are also the more difficult flying skills which one would need in the event you do need to hand fly if there are issues and you have to turn off the AP.
......
10-07-2017, 10:02 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by sailingfun
What happens when you go to engage the autopilot at 400 feet to fly that complicated departure and it fails to engage? Will you be competent to hand fly it without prior practice? What happens if you are dispatched with the autopilot inop? Will you be competent to fly the flight without practice?
I agree it is good below 10000 feet time to time, but above I find it annoying. And most passengers do too.
10-07-2017, 11:11 AM
#27
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Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: Professional Eugoogoolizer at the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can’t Read Good
Posts: 1,191
I like it when my FOs hand fly... if they are ok, IDC... but if they are shotty.. let's put George on.
When I'm PM it keeps me engaged more I feel. All my altitude busts and and wrong ways were due to George.. I have a very finicky George on my aircraft.
I try to keep my coordinated turns up to snuff especially since my aircraft has different roll spoiler involvement at different airspeeds. George doesn't know how to keep the ball centered..
When I'm tired I try to handily more as again I feel more engaged and does help me with the boredom...
I also manually tune all available navaids as well.. I'm just a dork.
When I'm PM it keeps me engaged more I feel. All my altitude busts and and wrong ways were due to George.. I have a very finicky George on my aircraft.
I try to keep my coordinated turns up to snuff especially since my aircraft has different roll spoiler involvement at different airspeeds. George doesn't know how to keep the ball centered..
When I'm tired I try to handily more as again I feel more engaged and does help me with the boredom...
I also manually tune all available navaids as well.. I'm just a dork.
10-07-2017, 11:32 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Downwind, headed straight for the rocks, shanghaied aboard the ship of fools.
Posts: 1,128
Originally Posted by dmeg13021
To each their own. If you can't handfly better than the auto pilot, only one way to get better.....
I keep automation on in high workloads or when I'm tired; like to see what George is doing for pitch and power on a late night gusty approach before I take over. But as for guidance, if it ain't RVSM, do what you want. You're a pilot, right?
I keep automation on in high workloads or when I'm tired; like to see what George is doing for pitch and power on a late night gusty approach before I take over. But as for guidance, if it ain't RVSM, do what you want. You're a pilot, right?
10-08-2017, 06:45 AM
#29
Feeling blessed.
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Was I finally in the right place at the right time?
Posts: 537
As an instructor on the B737 and having flown it with 6 airlines in four countries, I generally find that those that complain about 737 automation don't know how to use it. Sometimes, it's the company's fault for not adequately teaching it. Mostly, it's the pilot's fault for not trying to learn it.
10-08-2017, 07:04 AM
#30
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,205
Using the bank angle limiter and V/S, and pointing at a fix and zeroing out any offset before engaging a higher level of automation, can make the full automation mode much smoother.
The 737 full automation mode is similar to the Airbus 320 family in its handling characteristics - 'unload, roll, and pull!' is the protocol accelerating out of 10,000' and getting a turn.
The 737 full automation mode is similar to the Airbus 320 family in its handling characteristics - 'unload, roll, and pull!' is the protocol accelerating out of 10,000' and getting a turn.
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