Corporate to Airlines venting...
12-07-2017, 08:50 AM
#11
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
The airline world looks a HELL of a lot different today than it did in 2002 or 2009.
Post 9/11, bizav departments BOOMED and airlines furloughed thousands; decisions were validated. 05-07 saw hiring at airlines, then the Great Recession which arguably hit bizav harder than it did airlines, and as flight departments with decades of history closed their doors due to falling stock prices or activist traders or political pressure those decisions got questioned again.
Today, airline pay has gone up significantly to the point where NBAA Jet V PIC pay can be equaled in the second or third year of FO pay at some airlines - without consideration to retirement and health benefits which in my experience grossly lag in many corporate flight departments.
Just at my airline, pilots from a number of Fortune 500 companies have been hired in the last couple of year; three departments off the top of my head have had at least 3 pilots hired.
I can understand preferring the bizav lifestyle - who doesn't like crew cars and staying at JWs and steak dinners on the company AMEX as opposed to perdiem and airport food and min-rest stays at a HGI - but $$$ has a way of talking and math generally puts airlines on top of all but the VERY best HNWI flying gigs.
"Any port in a storm"...and right now, seas are calm and the sun in shining. I'd never blame a person for looking to change segments of industry chasing the gold, nor would I blame a person attempting to protect his employer from someone that *could* get a type rating and then quickly split. Help people when you can and don't be a d!ck if you can't, but ultimately the onus is on the person seeking a recommendation to prove their "worthiness" in all that entails.
Says the RJ FO to Citation Co-Capt to Citation CP to major cargo airline FO who has written numerous LORs for 91 guys seeking a 121 job...
Post 9/11, bizav departments BOOMED and airlines furloughed thousands; decisions were validated. 05-07 saw hiring at airlines, then the Great Recession which arguably hit bizav harder than it did airlines, and as flight departments with decades of history closed their doors due to falling stock prices or activist traders or political pressure those decisions got questioned again.
Today, airline pay has gone up significantly to the point where NBAA Jet V PIC pay can be equaled in the second or third year of FO pay at some airlines - without consideration to retirement and health benefits which in my experience grossly lag in many corporate flight departments.
Just at my airline, pilots from a number of Fortune 500 companies have been hired in the last couple of year; three departments off the top of my head have had at least 3 pilots hired.
I can understand preferring the bizav lifestyle - who doesn't like crew cars and staying at JWs and steak dinners on the company AMEX as opposed to perdiem and airport food and min-rest stays at a HGI - but $$$ has a way of talking and math generally puts airlines on top of all but the VERY best HNWI flying gigs.
"Any port in a storm"...and right now, seas are calm and the sun in shining. I'd never blame a person for looking to change segments of industry chasing the gold, nor would I blame a person attempting to protect his employer from someone that *could* get a type rating and then quickly split. Help people when you can and don't be a d!ck if you can't, but ultimately the onus is on the person seeking a recommendation to prove their "worthiness" in all that entails.
Says the RJ FO to Citation Co-Capt to Citation CP to major cargo airline FO who has written numerous LORs for 91 guys seeking a 121 job...
12-07-2017, 12:07 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,483
My short time flying charter/corporate showed me that the world of corporate flying is very insular. Guys don’t want to talk about getting on with their company because they see everything as a threat to their job. I did contract flying and the other guy was paranoid that I wanted his job.
Most guys that I have flown with in the airline that came from corporate are great, and they have good stories to tell. But even in the depths of the downturn for us, having an airline job is seen as more stable that corporate gigs. My personal philosophy is, in corporate the business doesn’t depend on the airplane. In the airline world, the business is all about the plane. I’d rather be the widget than the box the widget comes in. If you business depends on the plane it’s going to take a total meltdown for you to lose that job. (Though I have been there) In corporate, one business sneeze and you can be gone.
Most guys that I have flown with in the airline that came from corporate are great, and they have good stories to tell. But even in the depths of the downturn for us, having an airline job is seen as more stable that corporate gigs. My personal philosophy is, in corporate the business doesn’t depend on the airplane. In the airline world, the business is all about the plane. I’d rather be the widget than the box the widget comes in. If you business depends on the plane it’s going to take a total meltdown for you to lose that job. (Though I have been there) In corporate, one business sneeze and you can be gone.
12-07-2017, 04:32 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,724
Originally Posted by cactusmike
My short time flying charter/corporate showed me that the world of corporate flying is very insular. Guys don’t want to talk about getting on with their company because they see everything as a threat to their job. I did contract flying and the other guy was paranoid that I wanted his job.
Most guys that I have flown with in the airline that came from corporate are great, and they have good stories to tell. But even in the depths of the downturn for us, having an airline job is seen as more stable that corporate gigs. My personal philosophy is, in corporate the business doesn’t depend on the airplane. In the airline world, the business is all about the plane. I’d rather be the widget than the box the widget comes in. If you business depends on the plane it’s going to take a total meltdown for you to lose that job. (Though I have been there) In corporate, one business sneeze and you can be gone.
Most guys that I have flown with in the airline that came from corporate are great, and they have good stories to tell. But even in the depths of the downturn for us, having an airline job is seen as more stable that corporate gigs. My personal philosophy is, in corporate the business doesn’t depend on the airplane. In the airline world, the business is all about the plane. I’d rather be the widget than the box the widget comes in. If you business depends on the plane it’s going to take a total meltdown for you to lose that job. (Though I have been there) In corporate, one business sneeze and you can be gone.
12-07-2017, 06:01 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 1,681
Originally Posted by Big E 757
I’ll do you one better. In 2001, I wrote recommendations for 3 friends to try to get them interviews with Delta. An AirTran Pilot, a JetBlue Pilot, and a friend at Eagle. In 2002, when I found myself being broomed out the door, I reached out to the AirTran guy and he walked my stuff in. I called the JetBlue friend and his response was, “What will you do if you get recalled? You’ll leave and go back right?” You probably won’t ever get recalled anyway, Delta will never survive this anyway....”-click. He hung up on me. I couldn’t believe it. A year earlier, he was begging for help and when I needed help, he enjoyed my pain so thoroughly, it made me ill.
I experienced the same challenges the first year trying to break into the corporate world. As an Airline furloughee, it takes a lot of luck along with everything else, and you’re at a huge disadvantage out of the gate. However, I agree with all the other responses on here. Corporate departments are small and a guy that they train and leaves in a year would look bad on the person doing the recommending, most likely. Also, as has been said, be the bigger man. Help someone out if you can, even if they turned their back on you. But you might remind the friend how they left you hanging when you needed the helping hand. It might be worth a case of good bourbon some day.
Disclaimer: I know my former friends actions in no way represent the overall JetBlue Pilots. Ive been treated great when I’ve jumpseated with you guys and girls. It was the person, not the Airline talking.
I experienced the same challenges the first year trying to break into the corporate world. As an Airline furloughee, it takes a lot of luck along with everything else, and you’re at a huge disadvantage out of the gate. However, I agree with all the other responses on here. Corporate departments are small and a guy that they train and leaves in a year would look bad on the person doing the recommending, most likely. Also, as has been said, be the bigger man. Help someone out if you can, even if they turned their back on you. But you might remind the friend how they left you hanging when you needed the helping hand. It might be worth a case of good bourbon some day.
Disclaimer: I know my former friends actions in no way represent the overall JetBlue Pilots. Ive been treated great when I’ve jumpseated with you guys and girls. It was the person, not the Airline talking.
Can’t help thinking about ASA.
We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.
Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything (all the northwest regionals had flows which were honored-for what?) But ASA gets the old “thanks a lot for your nearly 40+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much!”
Not saying it’s your fault, or any delta employee’s..... But to Comair an airline which really did so many guys right when they needed it..... mgmt should be ashamed.
Karma is fickle.
Last edited by jcountry; 12-07-2017 at 06:13 PM.
12-07-2017, 06:15 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: A320 Left seat
Posts: 2,580
Originally Posted by jcountry
Sorry your good Karma wasn’t repaid.
Can’t help thinking about ASA.
We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.
Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything. Just “thanks a lot for your 30+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much!”
Not saying it’s your fault, or any delta employee’s..... But to Comair an airline which really did so many guys right when they needed it..... mgmt should be ashamed.
Karma is fickle.
Can’t help thinking about ASA.
We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.
Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything. Just “thanks a lot for your 30+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much!”
Not saying it’s your fault, or any delta employee’s..... But to Comair an airline which really did so many guys right when they needed it..... mgmt should be ashamed.
Karma is fickle.
PM sent.
12-07-2017, 06:47 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 1,681
Originally Posted by Big E 757
What is happening to ASA does suck. I’m sorry. I haven’t forgotten how you guys hired quite a few of our guys while JC Lawson, Comair, and the RJDC gave us all the middle finger.
PM sent.
PM sent.
12-07-2017, 10:09 PM
#17
Man in a Suitcase
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by jcountry
Sorry your good Karma wasn’t repaid.
Can’t help thinking about ASA.
We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.
Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything (all the northwest regionals had flows which were honored-for what?) But ASA gets the old “thanks a lot for your nearly 40+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much.
Can’t help thinking about ASA.
We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.
Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything (all the northwest regionals had flows which were honored-for what?) But ASA gets the old “thanks a lot for your nearly 40+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much.
12-08-2017, 03:54 AM
#18
You scratched my anchor
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,876
Originally Posted by Airhoss
I try to always treat people the way I want to be treated. And that includes an honest answer. The truth of the matter is that my LOR is not a magic carpet ride into a new hire class.
If I am unwilling to write that letter I will tell the person why. If I am willing to write that letter they need to understand how limited it’s effect may be.
I’ve also done corporate flying in the past. It has been my experience that the number one topic that corporate guys like to talk trash about are airline guys. I don’t take it personal. It’s just the ying and yang of the cultures.
If I am unwilling to write that letter I will tell the person why. If I am willing to write that letter they need to understand how limited it’s effect may be.
I’ve also done corporate flying in the past. It has been my experience that the number one topic that corporate guys like to talk trash about are airline guys. I don’t take it personal. It’s just the ying and yang of the cultures.
I flew corporate a long time ago but don’t remember that.
12-08-2017, 05:26 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: Port Bus
Posts: 725
Originally Posted by spikemath
Not really my place to stir anything up in this conversation but at the recent Delta job fair the Captain over the hiring department made it pretty clear they were giving preferential consideration to all ASA/Expressjet applicants. Not sure what that entails but he said each of their applications on file would be looked at again closely.
12-08-2017, 05:40 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: A320 Left seat
Posts: 2,580
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
Do corporate guys really talk a lot of trash about airline guys?
I flew corporate a long time ago but don’t remember that.
I flew corporate a long time ago but don’t remember that.
On day two, right before lunch, my buddy who was a furloughed NWA pilot lit into the guy. They went back and forth for several minutes in a heated exchange. It was comical and after that he pumped the brakes a little but still kept at it.
I can’t even remember any specifics about what exactly he was saying about us, but it was clear he absolutely hated us and was glad that the industry and it’s pilots were struggling.
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