Originally Posted by BeatNavy

Breeze pilots work for less, which puts pressure against industry wages and work rules (since this industry based largely on pattern bargaining). Same sentiment surrounded B6, same sentiment surrounds every start up that uses SJS and early seniority to subsidize wages and do more with less sniping pax with resultant lower fares from established carriers. Especially when you’re poaching RJ pilots just happy to fly something with more than 76 seats. Doing it when everyone else is going thru bankruptcy and no one is hiring is one thing. But right now, you could go pretty much anywhere and have a good career.

That’s one of the problems with this industry…as airlines mature and longevity increases, costs go up, so any swinging Richard can raise money, start a new airline which operates for less, undercut everyone else, take market share, end up bankrupt or sold/merged, and the cycle repeats, which ultimately hurts the piloting profession. It’s kind of a don’t hate the player, hate the game, scenario, but if nobody went to breeze, they’d either raise wages or fold. So, the players do have a say in it. “But it’s better than mesa, so I’m doing better for myself and my family. It’s a Neeleman company and I’ll be double digit seniority for my whole career and we will make jetblue pay in 5 years after we ask for it nicely enough because we are the nicest airline.” Yeah. Sure. If this ALPA drive actually makes it, that will help. Hope you learn from JetBlue’s mistake of taking 15 years and 3 union drives to finally do it. Just my $.02 why trolls come around here.

Originally Posted by Joachim

Breeze pilots making less puts near zero downwards pressure on industry wages. Their size and marketshare is so negligible and their pilot group so small that they have no impact. Should Breeze ever grow to be a major player, as to make a dent in the pilot job market, they would need to offer competitive packages as well. I suggest anyone who is worried about their own disposition because of a startup airline change tactics from vinegar to honey. These guys are going to need to battle their way up in terms and conditions just like SWA and UPS pilots had to in the past decades. Offer some support and mentorship. If you can’t do it because you’re a decent human being do it for your own selfish sake.

Originally Posted by Margaritaville

Hahahahahahaha! Epic trolling there, son.

Don't mess with the BreezyBois, folks.

[I'm here for the comedy relief. I'm bored. You?]

Originally Posted by BeatNavy

Breeze pilots work for less, which puts pressure against industry wages and work rules (since this industry based largely on pattern bargaining). Same sentiment surrounded B6, same sentiment surrounds every start up that uses SJS and early seniority to subsidize wages and do more with less sniping pax with resultant lower fares from established carriers. Especially when you’re poaching RJ pilots just happy to fly something with more than 76 seats. Doing it when everyone else is going thru bankruptcy and no one is hiring is one thing. But right now, you could go pretty much anywhere and have a good career.

That’s one of the problems with this industry…as airlines mature and longevity increases, costs go up, so any swinging Richard can raise money, start a new airline which operates for less, undercut everyone else, take market share, end up bankrupt or sold/merged, and the cycle repeats, which ultimately hurts the piloting profession. It’s kind of a don’t hate the player, hate the game, scenario, but if nobody went to breeze, they’d either raise wages or fold. So, the players do have a say in it. “But it’s better than mesa, so I’m doing better for myself and my family. It’s a Neeleman company and I’ll be double digit seniority for my whole career and we will make jetblue pay in 5 years after we ask for it nicely enough because we are the nicest airline.” Yeah. Sure. If this ALPA drive actually makes it, that will help. Hope you learn from JetBlue’s mistake of taking 15 years and 3 union drives to finally do it. Just my $.02 why trolls come around here.

Originally Posted by fastneat

you're still upset about the game, aren't you? 😂 kidding.. 😉

Originally Posted by BeatNavy

Lol only watched a few minutes of it this year. Don’t care a whole lot these days.

Originally Posted by BeatNavy

They have 126 planes on property or on order, with more options, and plans to get more than that. Saying they don’t matter and don’t affect the industry is naive, from both a market share and labor wage standpoint. They likely won’t make it into contract comparison guides in the next year or two, but by the end of this negotiating cycle (2-3 years maybe for most majors?) and certainly the next cycle will contain their rates as points of comparison.

Originally Posted by David Puddy

What do you expect start ups to pay right off the bat? JB or Delta wages? If Breeze doesn’t pay JB level wages in 3-5 years they will lose pilots. How about you give them a chance to start up with their A220 operation successfully before you expect Delta wages? I recall how JB paid very low wages when they started but things eventually turned around when the cash flow supported it.

Folks it takes a little while for most startups (regardless of industry) to pay industry averages - that’s why many startups offer stock options to bridge the initial difference. Cash flow matters a lot at the beginning as you are trying to prove yourself and your business model.

Originally Posted by BeatNavy

That’s just it. They aren’t offering stock options. Or profit sharing (they eliminated it in exchange for their raise). Also, B6 started in a different time. Not everyone was hiring. There were furloughs. Etc. So guys going to jetblue didn’t have a ton of options, so it’s a little harder to blame them at that point. That problem doesn’t exist now. Plenty of options out there hiring like crazy.

And I have to laugh at your “if they don’t pay jetblue wages in 3-5 years they will lose pilots.” They already are losing pilots, and will continue to do so. As is jetblue.

I don’t expect delta wages for a start up. But with these crap rates, especially when you factor in their 4% 401k match compared to most majors paying 16% and profit sharing, there needs to be something else like stock options. There isn’t. Just shiny jet syndrome and a low seniority number…and low wages…which is subsidizing their low fares and rapid growth.

Originally Posted by David Puddy

If more pilots leave or if they can’t attract enough in the near future, then pay will take care of itself. Look at Sun Country and their likely new contract - it took years and a pilot shortage to make it happen. Some people are attracted to startups and want to be a part of building something. Breeze will have to raise rates soon if the bleeding gets worse. Does not surprise me that some Breeze pilots are leaving for United or Delta - I would too. Breeze will need to raise its wages eventually or lose the ability to grow.

But don’t assume they can pay the industry averages right off the bat - nobody should expect that. It’s a startup and you rarely find high pay initially at any startup.