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David Puddy 06-18-2018 06:58 AM

[Breeze] Airways
 
Not sure if this has already been discussed. Looks like he is in the funding stage. What is the proposed aircraft type? CS300s....

Read below:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says

skydisaster 06-18-2018 07:00 AM

Moxy Airways
 
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ne-report-says


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CaptCoolHand 06-18-2018 07:23 AM

Neeleman is a great starter, but a bad finisher.

So this is Alligiant with jb flare?

PasserOGas 06-18-2018 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2616618)
Neeleman is a great starter, but a bad finisher.

So this is Alligiant with jb flare?

I thought jetblue was Allegant with jb flair.

rickair7777 06-18-2018 07:54 AM

New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.

BeatNavy 06-18-2018 07:58 AM

Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our fleet review and contract vote coming soon.

BeatNavy 06-18-2018 08:14 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2616646)
New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.

I don't think finding pilots, at least not initial guys filling the left seat, will be a problem...plenty of regional guys will jump at the opportunity to get larger-than-regional jet PIC, and it will likely pay more than a regional captain makes. Furthermore, the notion of getting in on the ground floor with the possibility of winning the seniority lottery in organic growth or via an acquisition will attract people. Throw in the fact that they'll likely have regional hiring standards, ie 1500 hour CFIs for the right seat, I doubt they'll have any trouble filling both seats, unfortunately. Guess we will see.

METO Guido 06-18-2018 08:29 AM

According to the article, he wants 100M for start up, the same number raised to bankroll JetBlue 20 years earlier?

rickair7777 06-18-2018 08:49 AM


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616659)
I don't think finding pilots, at least not initial guys filling the left seat, will be a problem...plenty of regional guys will jump at the opportunity to get larger-than-regional jet PIC, and it will likely pay more than a regional captain makes. Furthermore, the notion of getting in on the ground floor with the possibility of winning the seniority lottery in organic growth or via an acquisition will attract people. Throw in the fact that they'll likely have regional hiring standards, ie 1500 hour CFIs for the right seat, I doubt they'll have any trouble filling both seats, unfortunately. Guess we will see.

Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option, no good reason to take a bunch or risks for a stepping stone unless you know the established majors won't be calling... ever. Safer to just sit tight at your regional in most cases. If you just have to GTFO now, the ACMI's probably pay better, with no worse stability.

The FAA will require experienced CA's for the left seat, they will not let a startup hire 2500-hour regional FO's and put them in the left seat of a new-design narrowbody on a new certificate. Startups typically also hire experienced pilots for the right seat initially, on the premise that they will upgrade very quickly.

His B-Plan is going to need plenty of compensation for pilots. Or he's planning on staffing exclusively with pilots who have very significant black marks, ie felons, drunks, or documented incompetents, which would not bode well for safety (reference that learjet at TEB).

BeatNavy 06-18-2018 08:51 AM


Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 2616666)
According to the article, he wants 100M for start up, the same number raised to bankroll JetBlue 20 years earlier?

Won't need near the real estate/gates/landing fees that he needed with JetBlue if he's going point to point in secondary markets. I have to assume their overhead will be significantly lower. Fuel costs (or at least fuel quantity) will be significantly lower than his previous venture with significantly lower CASM. And I have to assume his financing terms for the 60 C series were probably pretty solid. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

Temocil27 06-18-2018 08:56 AM

At least Moxy has a vision. The current JetBlue has very little in common with the airline Neeleman started. I imagine he wants to distance himself as much as possible from the current company.

GreatStory 06-18-2018 09:06 AM

Good luck getting gate space. This thing is dead already.

rickair7777 06-18-2018 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by GreatStory (Post 2616685)
Good luck getting gate space. This thing is dead already.

As somebody mentioned, there's plenty of gate capacity in small-ish/medium sized towns across the country... and they'd probably be happy to build more if it will attract air service.

BeatNavy 06-18-2018 09:09 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2616675)
Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option, no good reason to take a bunch or risks for a stepping stone unless you know the established majors won't be calling. Safer to just sit tight at your regional in most cases.

The FAA will require experienced CA's for the left seat, they will not let a startup hire 2500 hour regional FO's and put them in the left seat of a new-design narrowbody on a new certificate. Startups typically also hire experienced pilots for the right seat initially, on the premise that they will upgrade very quickly.

His B-Plan is going to need plenty of compensation for pilots.

Guessing there are plenty of guys with 3k-5k hours (1k-2k+ TPIC), at regionals waiting on majors to call. Drop the degree requirement (likely won't be one at Moxy) and that opens a door for guys with no degree who are otherwise qualified. I've never seen any "start-up airline pilot minimums" in any FAA rules, and I'd venture to say that a current 121 captain, who has an FAA ATP, and who passes an FAA type ride in the C Series, is qualified in the FAA's eyes to act as a captain at a pt 121 airline, start-up or otherwise. I'd also venture to guess that Neeleman will pay Moxy CAs more than any regional will pay their CAs. If I was at a regional waiting for a major to call, I would possibly gamble with a start up while waiting, depending on the pay/benefits/bases/etc. The seniority, pay, and career expectations likely exceed that of any regional, with the exception of a guy having a possible near-term flow. And for the guys going straight to the left seat of Moxy, waiting for a big 6 to call, to then go be an FO again, may not be appealing. For guys in their first year at a regional, they could go be early FOs at Moxy with a potential quick upgrade, and make probably more money than they are making at said regional in either seat.

Guess we will see in a couple years how it plays out.

AYLflyer 06-18-2018 09:10 AM

I swear if we announce an E2 after this...

CS is clearly the way to go.

iahflyr 06-18-2018 09:48 AM

With the big 6 consolidating down to the big 3, I think it’s very likely to see some upstart competition on the Domestic side. We’ve already seen it happen on the International side

SUX4U 06-18-2018 10:01 AM


Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 2616675)
Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option

Big Six? Heard of Big Three, even Big 4 with SWA. Big Six is new to me. Who falls under that umbrella?

Bluedriver 06-18-2018 10:04 AM


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616648)
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our ***fleet review*** and contract vote coming soon.

Soon? I think they moved fleet review to the shelf to finish up the sharklet retrofit of all our A320s.

METO Guido 06-18-2018 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616677)
Won't need near the real estate/gates/landing fees that he needed with JetBlue if he's going point to point in secondary markets. I have to assume their overhead will be significantly lower. Fuel costs (or at least fuel quantity) will be significantly lower than his previous venture with significantly lower CASM. And I have to assume his financing terms for the 60 C series were probably pretty solid. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

So they're in talks with Chinese lessor for 18 delivered 2020-2022. Delta got 75 100's at a 65% MSRP reduction for between 25-27M each. The CS300 lists north of 70M. Just can't wrap my head around extending that kind of credit to an upstart when the odds are so long. Another JetBlue? Okey dokey.

Softpayman 06-18-2018 10:28 AM


Originally Posted by AYLflyer (Post 2616690)
I swear if we announce an E2 after this...

CS is clearly the way to go.

You have about as much say in it as your favorite baggage handler. CS is not clearly the way to go, you have no idea what deal is on the table. Ur job is to show up for a new type if that's what you choose.

O2pilot 06-18-2018 12:09 PM

JetBlue spinoff airline
 
Called “Moxy”. Will JB pilots be flying these planes? Or just codeshare.

JetBlue spinoff Moxy Airways has ordered 60 Bombardier C Series: report | Montreal Gazette

MGMTiswatchingU 06-18-2018 12:10 PM

Moxy Airlines?? CS300s? JetBlue?
 
JetBlue raising funds for a new Low- Cost Airline called Moxy Airways. Orders for 60 CS300s are in place to start flight in 2020. I guess management really likes the CSeries and sees their potential.

Is this where the profit is going? Are they trying to start another Airline and slowly unwind JetBlue Airways as we know it like Boeing did with their business?

OR

Is it just a scare to get the TA voted in?

Link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says

Smooth at FL450 06-18-2018 12:14 PM


Originally Posted by sux4u (Post 2616729)
big six? Heard of big three, even big 4 with swa. Big six is new to me. Who falls under that umbrella?

ual, dal, aa, swa, ups, & fdx

O2pilot 06-18-2018 12:15 PM


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616648)
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our fleet review and contract vote coming soon.

I’ll bet some junior JB guys leave and go be initial cadre Captains and then after they merger with JB doing very nicely in a seniority integration.

airbus300 06-18-2018 12:24 PM

My guess is that it is a totally seperate company that will probably do well. Might be a good stock to keep an eye on.

MGMTiswatchingU 06-18-2018 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by airbus300 (Post 2616820)
My guess is that it is a totally seperate company that will probably do well. Might be a good stock to keep an eye on.

It probably is, but what if it's a move to start a different company without Union? Shrink JetBlue as soon as Moxy is doing well? It's an interesting move.

BunkerF16 06-18-2018 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by MGMTiswatchingU (Post 2616810)
JetBlue raising funds for a new Low- Cost Airline called Moxy Airways. Orders for 60 CS300s are in place to start flight in 2020. I guess management really likes the CSeries and sees their potential.

Is this where the profit is going? Are they trying to start another Airline and slowly unwind JetBlue Airways as we know it like Boeing did with their business?

OR

Is it just a scare to get the TA voted in?

Link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ne-report-says


No. Neeleman isn't associated with JB and wouldn't be angling to help the company out at the pilots' expense.

Besides, JB doesn't need any help with getting this pilot group to vote for this POS TA. They hired the "right" pilots all these years. It'll pass with 65-70% yes votes. Minimum.

GuppyPuppy 06-18-2018 12:38 PM


Originally Posted by O2pilot (Post 2616807)
Called “Moxy”. Will JB pilots be flying these planes? Or just codeshare.

JetBlue spinoff Moxy Airways has ordered 60 Bombardier C Series: report | Montreal Gazette

Not a spin-off.

Gup

CaptCoolHand 06-18-2018 12:41 PM

Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

CaptCoolHand 06-18-2018 12:41 PM

Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

MGMTiswatchingU 06-18-2018 01:10 PM


Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2616832)
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

I hope it doesn't. Good for discussion though.

rickair7777 06-18-2018 01:11 PM


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616689)
Guessing there are plenty of guys with 3k-5k hours (1k-2k+ TPIC), at regionals waiting on majors to call. Drop the degree requirement (likely won't be one at Moxy) and that opens a door for guys with no degree who are otherwise qualified. I've never seen any "start-up airline pilot minimums" in any FAA rules, and I'd venture to say that a current 121 captain, who has an FAA ATP, and who passes an FAA type ride in the C Series, is qualified in the FAA's eyes to act as a captain at a pt 121 airline, start-up or otherwise.

That's what I said, the FAA will want CA's with PREVIOUS experience, who are in the ballpark for the established majors (who will be calling a lot of folks about the time this thing is ready to fly).

Spirit can hire regional FO's with 2,000 hours and no PIC... Moxy cannot initially.

There is no set regulatory requirement for CA experience at a startup, but that's part of what goes into issuing a 121 certificate... who are they issuing it to? If the FAA isn't happy with the initial cadre, they will not issue the cert. To make matters worse, most of the initial cadre will need to be LCA as well, and some of them will need previous LCA experience to prime the pump.

If they decide the be the "non college degree airline" that might get them enough of an initial cadre.

Or maybe not... how many senior regional lifers are going to give up massive seniority for a startup with an uncertain fate?


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616689)
I'd also venture to guess that Neeleman will pay Moxy CAs more than any regional will pay their CAs. If I was at a regional waiting for a major to call, I would possibly gamble with a start up while waiting, depending on the pay/benefits/bases/etc. The seniority, pay, and career expectations likely exceed that of any regional, with the exception of a guy having a possible near-term flow.

That's what I was saying, he's going to have to come in pretty darn high to get the experience he needs for initial cadre. He has to offset the startup risk, at a time when stable majors are hiring many and paying very well.

Only way around it might be to hire the initial cadre at a contractually guaranteed level of compensation, and then set a B scale for new hires later on. The usual startup trick of promising more later is probably not going to work in this climate. It worked in the past because airlines were going BK, and you could find CA's from L-US, Indy Air, Midwest, ACMIs, etc.


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616689)
And for the guys going straight to the left seat of Moxy, waiting for a big 6 to call, to then go be an FO again, may not be appealing.

Maybe. No one will have longevity though. Right now 20+ year regional, fractional, and ACMI CA's are leaving for the big six.


Originally Posted by BeatNavy (Post 2616689)
For guys in their first year at a regional, they could go be early FOs at Moxy with a potential quick upgrade, and make probably more money than they are making at said regional in either seat.

I'm sure many would, we see that right now with the ULCC's.

But with ULCC's, LCC's and even some legacies struggling with applicant quality, it's going to be even tougher for a startup.

nuball5 06-18-2018 01:28 PM


Originally Posted by MGMTiswatchingU (Post 2616849)
I hope it doesn't. Good for discussion though.


The only thing really to discuss is how long would it take for JetBlue to receive their first CSeries (if they go that route), if Airbus/Bombardier are at capacity filling orders for other airlines.

MGMTiswatchingU 06-18-2018 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by nuball5 (Post 2616864)
The only thing really to discuss is how long would it take for JetBlue to receive their first CSeries (if they go that route), if Airbus/Bombardier are at capacity filling orders for other airlines.

Next thing I'd guess is JetBlue might really see the opportunity in the CSeries and put an order in for here, instead of the E2s. If "Molly" can do the smaller airports with the CS300s, why not JetBlue?

Triggs 06-18-2018 02:40 PM

He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

rickair7777 06-18-2018 03:03 PM


Originally Posted by Triggs (Post 2616904)
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

That would be easier. As long as enough CA's and instructors are willing to come with it. The paper can be sold, but the pilots don't HAVE to go with it...

O2pilot 06-18-2018 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand (Post 2616832)
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

Why aren’t they focusing on growing JB instead of starting a shadow airline. Its all the same people running this. Maybe not a “spinoff” but that gets them around scope possibly.

David Puddy 06-18-2018 05:20 PM


Originally Posted by MGMTiswatchingU (Post 2616868)
Next thing I'd guess is JetBlue might really see the opportunity in the CSeries and put an order in for here, instead of the E2s. If "Molly" can do the smaller airports with the CS300s, why not JetBlue?

The CS300 is very versatile airplane - and Neeleman knows it. The E2 has fewer seats, less range and it can’t compare ergonomically to the CSeries. What’s remarkable is that Neeleman becomes a big proponent of the CSeries while simultaneously operating one of the largest E190 fleets out there with Azul in Brazil (and JB before that). I am betting Embraer ain’t too happy considering both JB and Spirit are evaluating both the CSeries and the E2 these days. This speculative order for 60 airframes is a BIG vote of confidence in the CS300 and what it can do...

Softpayman 06-18-2018 05:27 PM


Originally Posted by David Puddy (Post 2616978)
The CS300 is very versatile airplane - and Neeleman knows it. The E2 has fewer seats, less range and it can’t compare ergonomically to the CSeries. What’s remarkable is that Neeleman becomes a big proponent of the CSeries while simultaneously operating one of the largest E190 fleets out there with Azul in Brazil (and JB before that). I am betting Embraer ain’t too happy considering both JB and Spirit are evaluating both the CSeries and the E2 these days. This speculative order for 60 airframes is a BIG vote of confidence in the CS300 and what it can do...

I’d say the decision was between the CS300 and A320 NEO.... those to me are as comparable as E195 and CS300 are.

hilltopflyer 06-18-2018 05:40 PM


Originally Posted by O2pilot (Post 2616947)
Why aren’t they focusing on growing JB instead of starting a shadow airline. Its all the same people running this. Maybe not a “spinoff” but that gets them around scope possibly.

It’s the old jetblue people. Not current b6


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