duffrick

Without speaking for everybody else that is "giving advice" to the new guys, I can only add that if new pilots today would just stop paying for flight time like they do at Gulfstream et al., we'd be off to a good start. See, the giant sucking sound from these carriers are preventing other regionals from raising their pay and benefits. The depressed wages and benefits at the regionals are keeping pay and benefits low at LCC's (SWA not included), and the depressed wages at the LCC's are keeping the wages and benefits down at the Legacies. I truly believe on some level that this is now a "flow-up" industry versus a "trickle-down" industry as it used to be. We'll try to fight to get pay and benefits back to where they should be at the Legacy carriers, but we are going to need help from you young strapping pilots at the regional and LCC levels.

When my generation came through in the early nineties, companies like ValuJet, ExecJet and others required their newhires to pay for training. This was an absolute deplorable development, but something these companies did when there were more pilots than jobs. Still, most pilots with a little self-respect would not join these fly-for-free scams. That was good, but the precedent was set...

In the mid-ninetees when the Legacy carriers started to hire in big numbers and pilots no longer "felt the need" to have to pay for their jobs, these scams largely went away. My guess is that the only companies that could attract "pay-for" pilots, were the companies who would hire ANYBODY to have warm bodies in their pilot seats, and the only pilots who would go to these companies were guys who had so many skeletons in their closets that it would scare all other airlines off, or a pilot with no time, no patience and an unlimited spending allowance.

Hang in there new guys, and help us try to pull trough this major industry shake-up by resisting the temptation of pay-for programs and do what you can on every level you step in your carreer to better your wages and benefits. A turn-around in this industry is possible, but the Legacy pilots can no longer be the ones fighting everybody's battle.

Eric Stratton

Your a northwest guy right? You talk about helping the industry but you are giving up airplanes and could have horrible pay for the new 100 seat airplanes. The old guys screwed this industry by giving up the 50 seaters and now you're giving up 70 seaters. Wheres the help when ACA or AirWhisky gets kicked to the curb. What about the ExpressJets loss of 69 airplanes or all the other whip sawing that none ot the majors could give a crap about. Every major has left the regionals just blowing in the wind so don't preach about how the Legacy's were the only one's fighting everyone's battle because they weren't. They were only fighting for themselves and it proves it by giving up more airplanes.

So what is going to be the new starting pay on those new 100 seat airplanes if your contract passes?

I'm assuming your voting no...

duffrick

Your deductive reasoning powers are serving you well grasshopper. I am one of those horrible, terrible, spineless Northwest guys.

First of all, the loss of the 50 seat RJ's is good for the industry, at almost 2 dimes per seatmile, they are an absolute disaster and an impossibility to make money with! The only reason they ever made any money for the feeder carriers were because of cost+% compensation from the mother cow. When Southwest were looking at RJ's, they came to the conclusion that it was impossible for them to make money with the 50 seat RJ's. Meanwhile, the legacy carriers and all their feeders were trampling each other to get these money guzzlers. Independence Air showed us all that without a guaranteed payment per flight, RJ's will kick an airline to the curb so fast it'll make your head spin.

Now, it appears, some managers have figured out what most of us and SWA knew all along; twin-engine jets need to be able to hold at least 70 pax (breakeven could be even higher, I am not sure as to the exact sice A/C) in order to be profitable. Smaller markets should be served with turbo-props.

Second, Mr Stratton, I am not preaching at all. I am simply *****ing over the lack of patience a lot of the pilot's fresh out of flight training have. It took me more than ten years from the day I started flight school until I got a chance to fly jet's for a living. Today, if you got the cash or a willing banker, you can go from zero hours to F/O in an RJ in about a year! That is stuff that will make an old turboprop guy like me dizzy! I too went the civilian route with the commuters so please don't you preach to me about preaching.

I held on to my turboprop captain seat until I got on with NWA and didn't cave to the desire and go to ValuJet (Air Tran) just so I could fly a jet. Some of the guys did go to ValuJet and they knew they were putting out a potential anchor for the industry. Every single one of the guys who left told me that they only did it so they could move up the career ladder faster, then they'd go to the majors thinking that their prior actions would never catch up with them, well guess what. The fat lady is singing!

Third, the starting pay for an F/O on all the small jets is pretty dismal; around $24/hour not too far off UPS's first year pay of $27/hour. F/O's top out at $57.50 at year 12 in the 77-100 seat category, $61.26 in the EMB-195 category and $69.60 in the 101-110 seat category. The captains start out at $78.57 year 1 and top out at $98.58, $105.00, and $116.37 respectively.
The pay at SJet or whatever the new wholly owned subsidiary will be called, is limited to 51-76 seats and pays from $60-$100 depending on the year for captains and between $23-$41 for F/O's. As an SJet Captain (my worst possible scenario position since I have some seniority) my paycut would be what a DC-9 F/O at my year is getting paid, around $80/hour. Do I consider that a good deal? No, of course not! Will I reject the contract for this issue? As it stands right now, no. I am going to have to attend one of the road shows in order to make up my mind.

Do you work for NWA Mr. Stratton, or are you like B757driver in that you are telling me how to vote on a TA for NWA when you don't even work there yourself?

Eric Stratton

duffrick are you saying that people shouldn't take a job flying a jet because they got there in about a year and it took you ten years? please.... If these people bust their humbs to do it more power too them, and what's the big hang up on flying jet's. There aren't very many turboprops left to fly anyway so now you start out in a jet big deal.

So you said that your worst possible scenario would be to go to sjet and be a capt. making around $80 an hour. what will you make when you return to nwa flying one of those 195's from the right seat? Have you thought about that. I'm betting you haven't. Maybe I'm missing something here but won't you be taking a pay cut to go back to nwa?

you're right I'm like 757driver and don't work there but if I did I'd be without a doubt voting no. just because I don't work there don't think that this will not have an impact on the rest of the industry. you will be just like jetblue in having a rediculously low payscale for a 100 seat airplane. sorry let me be fair to jetblue in that they get time and a half pay over guarantee and start out at $37 for the 190.

I'm curious how does the rest of your payscale compare to UPS's. What does it look like when compared to years 2,3,4,5?

757Driver

Ditto Eric,

Thankfully Duffrick seems to be in the minority over there at NWA. As I pointed out earlier this clown would probably pay NWA management just so he can show up for work with his pretty gold F/O wings on. Pathetic.

Seaber

Although I wish it was otherwise, I'm afraid pilots can continue to look forward to unrelenting pressure on pilot pay scales. This is all driven by the insistence of the American flying public on the cheap ticket.

Airlines that can make a profit while offering cheap tickets will survive; those that can't, won't.

Joeshmoe

Here comes the next civil war.....you guys all sound like a bunch of chicks. Maybe we can extract the estrogen out of all this and act like a united front of MEN. Step up and stop b@#$% slapping each other just to prove your stupid point. ALPA is a joke, management are a bunch of criminals and pilots are the only ones (as a united front) that can save this cluster F.

SkyHigh

Welcome to capitalism. At my peak I could I manufacture 9 landings per day.

SkyHigh

757Driver

Nonsense, Explain SWA's payscales Einstein. Perhaps their managers know how to run an airline and still treat their employees properly. Management is still 90% to blame for all the nonsense we are seeing.

Petergowzinya

If the flood of eager neophytes were made a part of the team, instead of shat on and blames for all the industry's woes, than maybe there would be som solidarity amongst ranks...historically the only time a major airline pilot group gave a rat's ass about the regional pilots is when the big boys were hurting...then we were brothers, I lived both worlds and the hypocrisy is so glaringly clear now I am out of thr US market and watching from afar....regional pilots have their own battles to fight, thanks to "brothers"at the major partner companies..they have families too remember...if the major union groups had the foresight many years ago to bring them into the game plan, maybe today the regionals wouldnt be being played against their own major pilot groups..but who wanted "little dirty commuter pilots" in their elite social club...well....now the fat lady is singing, and the tune ain't pretty is it, and it is all your own doing...