rickair7777

In my experience, that's only an option if de-ice/anti-ice has been applied... was not aware it was an option in lieu of anti-ice?

A very few blowing dry flakes in reality is a non-issue, but the rules we have today don't really allow for any discretion, and all the amateur social justice journalists in the back can easily document the event with their phones.

Trip7

The rules allow for plenty of discretion. The Captain is responsible for making sure there is no contamination adhering to critical surfaces. If the OP can prove the snow was adhering to the aircraft he might have a case.

Keizer Soze

Fair enough. Pre flight inspection then.

Name User

I semi agree with this.

However at AA the manuals reference different criterea. In some places it mentions adhering, in others any contamination what so ever. Quite frankly I feel the manuals were written to be ambiguous on purpose and to give the company a get out of jail free card should something happen.

Also you can argue the application of the word "adhere" as well. Does that mean quite literally it cannot be brushed off? You can brush frost off...so technically it's not adhering. But we all know the ramifications of it.

A super cold day, well in the 20's, with dry blowing snow? You can see it just blows off the wing...and quite honestly putting on a layer of anti ice fluid will actually then make it stick...

Not to mention how do you prove, sitting in a cockpit or even looking out an exit window, that contamination isn't adhering to all spots? How about the tail? Again such a stupid mandate that is in everyone's manuals almost verbatim.

There is only one way and it's to get deiced. But let's be honest, a little bit of snow won't have any sort of performance degradation that would cause and airplane to not be able to fly.

I don't have any answers but certainly a lot of questions.

JamesNoBrakes

Actually, I'd say that it is next to impossible to brush frost off, because that's the nature of frost, it's adhering. It's not dry snow on a cold plane that can be swept off or wet slush on a warm plane (assuming no adhering ice) that will just slough off. Even when you try to brush the frost off, it's still there, just less of it. On a microscopic scale, it's little crystals of ice that are attached to the plane. This is where that whole "polish the frost" thing came from...

Name User

I have wiped frost off with my hand.

rickair7777

Under some conditions... if sun shines on the surface it will penetrate the semi-opaque frost and heat the metal surface underneath which will melt the interface. Then the frost is just floating on a thin film of water.

You can wipe it off a car window if the car is warmed up because it's not adhering to the heated glass.

But you can't rely on that for flight safety.

tomgoodman

MadDog F/Os used to wave a magic wand over the wing if any frost was lurking there. It had no effect on the frost, but soothed any CPs who were watching.

Gary et al

The item Senior Chavez didn't mention is that the temp in LAS was reported at +3 C most of this time and +2 for a short time. He's trying to start stuff just like when he became irate for a Frontier pilot sending a letter to his home suggesting he vote no on the recently voted in contract. For this "harrasment" he contacted the Denver police.

I'm all for promoting safety in our industry. But realistically these pilots probably did things correctly and made sure that due to the higher temperature none of the precip was adhering to their aircraft. Todd is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong trying to ruin other people's careers because of things he doesn't understand.

JamesNoBrakes

That was more like dew at that point than frost, when the frost forms, it's frozen. If the surface has remained cold, it's adhering to the surface.

Not to mention, "brushed off" was used, implying frozen.