4runner

excargodog barked real loud, sent some puppies yelping with their tails between their legs, then dropped the microphone and exited the stage. My Man...

450knotOffice

Yes he did.

flensr

Betcha there are plenty of lurkers who spent a lot of time in that world who disagree with excargodog, but who didn't want to get involved in the poo flinging. Me included. My take on it - nukes are as serious a business as there ever was, but cutting the throats of people who were not part of the mishap chain of events is EXTREMELY counter-productive, both to nuke surety and to the overall health of the force.

I've been there, done that, taught surety for a year along the way. I lost ALL respect for the handful of people who, like excargodog, use the seriousness of the business as an excuse to exercise poor leadership. It's too important for mil leaders to let the importance of the job excuse their incompetent leadership, yet the USAF rewards commanders who ruthlessly hack down anyone remotely connected with an incident regardless of actual culpability. I did everything I could to support the commanders who DIDN'T do that, and I wouldn't raise a finger to help the commanders who cut down others just to save their own butts or to prove *whatever* when comparing dingdings with the other commanders. And when my last good boss retired and I was handed over to a boot-licking supervisor, I couldn't quit fast enough.

Yea, he got the mic drop, but part of that is because those of us who think leadership is more critical in preventing future incidents and mishaps than just crucifying everyone in sight chose to stay on the sidelines. The importance of the job does NOT absolve the commander of the responsibility to exercise competent leadership, and part of that is ensuring that even in the face of a MASSIVE accountability failure like this one, you don't go after people who were not causal in the chain of events. That's a leadership failure and those same leaders were responsible for setting up the conditions that led to the incident.

And seriously... Expecting a non nuke certified pilot who didn't even do the walk-around to recognize that the cruise missile shape on the wing is a live nuke is patently ludicrous. Again, the importance of the mission doesn't excuse poor leadership.

4runner

The military is good at making examples of colonels/commanders for upper echelon leadership failures. I’ve worked closely with the US and western militaries for the last several years. From an outsiders perspective, it seems that you have the best and worst of society and that we’re inefficient and cumbersome, but slightly less so than the competition.

PhantomHawk

This whole conversation has a big fat ZERO to do with commercial aviation.

flensr

That's nothing, compared to this other totally unrelated foulup we can argue about for days.

flensr

At DAL in the recent past...

Tower: All departures closed. We expect releases for North departures, West departures expect to wait a while.

Westbound aircraft: Any update on West...
Tower: No

Tower: Northbound departure #1 cleared for takeoff blah blah
Westbound aircraft: Any guess on when Wes...
Tower: No

5 minutes later
Tower: Northbound departure #2, sorry for the delay center is trickling these releases to us one at a time, cleared for takeoff blah blah.
Westbound guy: Tower, we're #3 in line for the westbound any...
Tower: No

5 minutes later
Westbound guy: Tower, westbound guy #2, any update on...
Tower: (clearly trying not to sound frustrated) No

And on and on. Ignore the steady stream in and out of DFW, LUV gonna get what we get, so don't pitch a fit.

captjns

Negative... some of these “Throw ‘em Under the Bus Incompetents” wind up at the airlines.

tomgoodman

Objection sustained. Don’t make a post in a thread/subforum not directly related to its subject matter, in order to gain it more viewers.
That’s how the old TOTD thread got moved to “Hangar Talk”.

navigatro

sure it does. Since military pilots make the best airline pilots, it is directly relatable.