Stupid question.
12-01-2019, 04:30 PM
#12
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Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Most majors won’t allow it. Raises to many FAR 117 issues.
The restriction in most air carrier FOMs regarding outside commercial flying is a hold over from old 121 rules and should be changed. The FAA doesn’t care what you do on your off time with regards to flying, your airline shouldn’t either.
Now the other risks associated with part 91 flying is a different story.
12-01-2019, 04:38 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by ImperialxRat
You would need chief pilot approval to do any flying outside of the airline that utilizes your commercial.. as in you’re getting paid to fly. As mentioned before, brings up a lot of Far117 conflicts or issues unless you’re flying a reduced schedule at your airline. Usually more work than it’s worth for everyone to keep track of your rest and rolling flight times so would probably not be approved.
12-02-2019, 05:26 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by gollum
Unless it’s 91k, 121, or 135 (ie certificate holders) or 91 ops directed by a certificate holder, there are no 117 implications at all as 117 is not affected by pure part 91 flying.
The restriction in most air carrier FOMs regarding outside commercial flying is a hold over from old 121 rules and should be changed. The FAA doesn’t care what you do on your off time with regards to flying, your airline shouldn’t either.
Now the other risks associated with part 91 flying is a different story.
The restriction in most air carrier FOMs regarding outside commercial flying is a hold over from old 121 rules and should be changed. The FAA doesn’t care what you do on your off time with regards to flying, your airline shouldn’t either.
Now the other risks associated with part 91 flying is a different story.
Yes you can do it.
Yes you might have to ask your CP, who no longer has a good reason to say no (unless you make a lot of fatigue calls).
No, it's not a great idea unless you're really familiar with the operation (ie your Dad is the boss) and you know it won't get you violated. This happened to a buddy of mine, managed (with significant lawyer expense) to talk the FAA into a BIG fine instead of a suspension... all that while prepping for his scheduled legacy interview. Good times.
Yes, it's better to just pick up a turn or a two-day. Almost no way is a corporate flight going to pay more, day for day than a major.
12-08-2019, 01:43 PM
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 55
This is not a stupid question. I get that it might make zero sense from a financial or risk-to-certificate perspective, but what if an airline pilot just wants to do some flying on the side and be compensated for his time?
Realistically, he can’t. FAR 121.471 and 121.489 are clear that any “other commercial flying” has to fit within the FAR 121 flight time limitations. The FAA has gone on to say, in a July 2, 2012 letter to Mr. Arturo Rodriguez of Miami, that flight instruction conducted under Part 91 is considered “other commercial flying.” My company, therefore, has a prohibition against any “other commercial flying” even if I kept all commercial flying inside the 121 limits.
I think this is a mistake. I suppose I understand why the Feds don’t want an airline pilot flying a jet on the side, but what is wrong with doing some primary or instrument flight instruction on the side? We’re in the midst of an epic pilot training and hiring phase and the next generation of airline pilots are being trained in many cases by CFIs who are only a few hundred hours ahead of them. There is room for experienced, active airline pilots to provide some quality instruction and mentorship here, and I would like to see the Feds change the rule to exclude, say, 100 hours of flight instruction per year from the Part 121 limits.
Who better to expose aspiring commercial pilots to this industry than us?
Realistically, he can’t. FAR 121.471 and 121.489 are clear that any “other commercial flying” has to fit within the FAR 121 flight time limitations. The FAA has gone on to say, in a July 2, 2012 letter to Mr. Arturo Rodriguez of Miami, that flight instruction conducted under Part 91 is considered “other commercial flying.” My company, therefore, has a prohibition against any “other commercial flying” even if I kept all commercial flying inside the 121 limits.
I think this is a mistake. I suppose I understand why the Feds don’t want an airline pilot flying a jet on the side, but what is wrong with doing some primary or instrument flight instruction on the side? We’re in the midst of an epic pilot training and hiring phase and the next generation of airline pilots are being trained in many cases by CFIs who are only a few hundred hours ahead of them. There is room for experienced, active airline pilots to provide some quality instruction and mentorship here, and I would like to see the Feds change the rule to exclude, say, 100 hours of flight instruction per year from the Part 121 limits.
Who better to expose aspiring commercial pilots to this industry than us?
12-08-2019, 02:59 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
Originally Posted by Slowmover
This is not a stupid question. I get that it might make zero sense from a financial or risk-to-certificate perspective, but what if an airline pilot just wants to do some flying on the side and be compensated for his time?
Realistically, he can’t. FAR 121.471 and 121.489 are clear that any “other commercial flying” has to fit within the FAR 121 flight time limitations. The FAA has gone on to say, in a July 2, 2012 letter to Mr. Arturo Rodriguez of Miami, that flight instruction conducted under Part 91 is considered “other commercial flying.” My company, therefore, has a prohibition against any “other commercial flying” even if I kept all commercial flying inside the 121 limits.
I think this is a mistake. I suppose I understand why the Feds don’t want an airline pilot flying a jet on the side, but what is wrong with doing some primary or instrument flight instruction on the side? We’re in the midst of an epic pilot training and hiring phase and the next generation of airline pilots are being trained in many cases by CFIs who are only a few hundred hours ahead of them. There is room for experienced, active airline pilots to provide some quality instruction and mentorship here, and I would like to see the Feds change the rule to exclude, say, 100 hours of flight instruction per year from the Part 121 limits.
Who better to expose aspiring commercial pilots to this industry than us?
Realistically, he can’t. FAR 121.471 and 121.489 are clear that any “other commercial flying” has to fit within the FAR 121 flight time limitations. The FAA has gone on to say, in a July 2, 2012 letter to Mr. Arturo Rodriguez of Miami, that flight instruction conducted under Part 91 is considered “other commercial flying.” My company, therefore, has a prohibition against any “other commercial flying” even if I kept all commercial flying inside the 121 limits.
I think this is a mistake. I suppose I understand why the Feds don’t want an airline pilot flying a jet on the side, but what is wrong with doing some primary or instrument flight instruction on the side? We’re in the midst of an epic pilot training and hiring phase and the next generation of airline pilots are being trained in many cases by CFIs who are only a few hundred hours ahead of them. There is room for experienced, active airline pilots to provide some quality instruction and mentorship here, and I would like to see the Feds change the rule to exclude, say, 100 hours of flight instruction per year from the Part 121 limits.
Who better to expose aspiring commercial pilots to this industry than us?
12-09-2019, 06:11 PM
#18
Banned
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by Slowmover
This is not a stupid question. I get that it might make zero sense from a financial or risk-to-certificate perspective, but what if an airline pilot just wants to do some flying on the side and be compensated for his time?
Realistically, he can’t. FAR 121.471 and 121.489 are clear that any “other commercial flying” has to fit within the FAR 121 flight time limitations. The FAA has gone on to say, in a July 2, 2012 letter to Mr. Arturo Rodriguez of Miami, that flight instruction conducted under Part 91 is considered “other commercial flying.” My company, therefore, has a prohibition against any “other commercial flying” even if I kept all commercial flying inside the 121 limits.
I think this is a mistake. I suppose I understand why the Feds don’t want an airline pilot flying a jet on the side, but what is wrong with doing some primary or instrument flight instruction on the side? We’re in the midst of an epic pilot training and hiring phase and the next generation of airline pilots are being trained in many cases by CFIs who are only a few hundred hours ahead of them. There is room for experienced, active airline pilots to provide some quality instruction and mentorship here, and I would like to see the Feds change the rule to exclude, say, 100 hours of flight instruction per year from the Part 121 limits.
Who better to expose aspiring commercial pilots to this industry than us?
Realistically, he can’t. FAR 121.471 and 121.489 are clear that any “other commercial flying” has to fit within the FAR 121 flight time limitations. The FAA has gone on to say, in a July 2, 2012 letter to Mr. Arturo Rodriguez of Miami, that flight instruction conducted under Part 91 is considered “other commercial flying.” My company, therefore, has a prohibition against any “other commercial flying” even if I kept all commercial flying inside the 121 limits.
I think this is a mistake. I suppose I understand why the Feds don’t want an airline pilot flying a jet on the side, but what is wrong with doing some primary or instrument flight instruction on the side? We’re in the midst of an epic pilot training and hiring phase and the next generation of airline pilots are being trained in many cases by CFIs who are only a few hundred hours ahead of them. There is room for experienced, active airline pilots to provide some quality instruction and mentorship here, and I would like to see the Feds change the rule to exclude, say, 100 hours of flight instruction per year from the Part 121 limits.
Who better to expose aspiring commercial pilots to this industry than us?
The sections you quoted are for cargo only airlines, not passenger.
§121.470 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for domestic all-cargo operations
I posted it earlier, straight part 91 flying (to include flight instruction DOES NOT COUNT towards your flight hour limits under part 117.
I guess it would affect UPS and FedEx but has absolutely no affect on United, AA, Delta, Jet Blue, etc....
Any restriction placed on part 91 commercial flying by those companies a is FOM restriction and not otherwise dictated by the FARs
Last edited by gollum; 12-09-2019 at 06:33 PM.
12-10-2019, 12:29 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by gollum
None of what you stated is true for 121 passenger airlines that fall under 117 rules.
The sections you quoted are for cargo only airlines, not passenger.
§121.470 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for domestic all-cargo operations
I posted it earlier, straight part 91 flying (to include flight instruction DOES NOT COUNT towards your flight hour limits under part 117.
I guess it would affect UPS and FedEx but has absolutely no affect on United, AA, Delta, Jet Blue, etc....
Any restriction placed on part 91 commercial flying by those companies a is FOM restriction and not otherwise dictated by the FARs
The sections you quoted are for cargo only airlines, not passenger.
§121.470 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for domestic all-cargo operations
I posted it earlier, straight part 91 flying (to include flight instruction DOES NOT COUNT towards your flight hour limits under part 117.
I guess it would affect UPS and FedEx but has absolutely no affect on United, AA, Delta, Jet Blue, etc....
Any restriction placed on part 91 commercial flying by those companies a is FOM restriction and not otherwise dictated by the FARs
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