MikeB525

Hi all,

I want to hear your take on this as airline pilots/employees. Right now there is an obvious battle going on to force GA operations to pay a bunch more taxes for ATC. The airlines are pushing this, whereas we know it ill seriously hurt GA. According to AOPA, the airlines have been pushing forth "propoganda" against GA. The most common thing is trying to convince the general public that most of the bad delays that are happening are being caused by GA aircraft. United and Northwest actually put articles about it in their in-flight magazines, and United went one step further and put out a "propoganda" e-mail to all its frequent fliers.

As pilots you're on the front lines of the operation. In your opinion/experience, is there any truth behind the airlines' claims?

And secondly, how do you as employees feel about your companies putting out this potentially misleading information?

HSLD

As pilots you won't "see" the aircraft that delays you because in the terminal area everything is 3 miles in trail for landing day in and day out - it all looks the same from the terminal. I think the group that could answer your questions are the center controllers that impose the ground delays, speed restrictions, and spacing vectors for everyone due to en route congestion.

As for the second question, I haven't seen any airline press releases on this, do you have a reference or link to what you feel is misleading?

ERJ135

I was DH'ing the other day and I read in the the American Way magazine Arpey blaming biz jets on the funding for the ATC system. It was quite clear he seemed to be trying to use the ATC delays and blame it on the biz jets. Trying to sour public opinion on the business aviation. Nothing really on the GA side of it but, he's GA pilot too.

cbire880

Biased, but has a link to the source release.
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite...070706ata.html

There was also that slew of ads with the cartoon airplanes complaining about delays. I'd say the statistic that is skewed the most is the comparison between GA and airline aircraft instead of flight hours.

Onfinal

I've seen and read some of the propaganda that's taking place.

IMHO:

Airlines have a good point with pressing for geater NBAA aircraft (for profit fractional owners, charter companies, corporations using aircraft for business, etc.) participation in ATC cost structure, these are major users of the system.

Where I think they've gone wrong is to attack the GA users (read small private, recreational use, and Pilot training). I believe that it would be the proverbial "shooting yourself in the foot" if they continue to attack this level of airspace use because they really do not use up the system that the Airlines do. Although, a portion of the FAA budget goes to operate small GA towered airports and the lower altitude enroute controllers, it is to the benefit of the airlines to pay to keep this operational level separate from their own.

Finally, if you want to really see a pilot shortage, just make flight schools pass along ATC service fees to the students.


Onfinal

HSLD

I think we can all agree that ATC delays have to do with inadequate ATC capacity. For the ATA to say it's GA/Bizjet causing the problem while saying nothing about ATA airline members fleet expansion is a bit hypocritical.

greedyairlineexec

I don't think is about delays, but about taxes.

airlines pay landing fees at every airport, while 135 and 91 jet operators only payin the major airports.

part of the user fees goes to pay for the atc structure and airpot improvements, the 135 and 91 operators barely pitch in but they use it as much.

why should a ticket that cost $300 have $40 in taxes while someone doing charters or a corporate jet is not paying anything other than FBO fuel taxes to support the system?

if you want to fly VFR from an uncontrolled airport that belongs to a city that uses its taxpayers money to mantain it you should do it for free ( unless the city decides to charge you), but if you want to use the atc system in any way shape or for you should pay for it just like airline passengers do.

aopa is basically saying that the wealthy aiplane owners that already don't pay taxes thanks to legal tax loopholes should not pay any taxes to support their expensive airplane hobby becaus they are superior to everyone else. nice sense of entitlement. and guess what, it will not kill GA, have high fuel prices killed GA? why don't we all subsidized lower fuel cost for GA airplane owners? is the same .

FlyerJosh

UAL, NWA, USAirways, and American have all featured either email campaigns or articles in their magazines about how "corporate fat cats" flying business jets are clogging up the skies and how ticketed passengers are paying to subsidize aviation for the weathly in this country.

Even worse is that CNN airport network (often prominently displayed in major hubs such as DTW) is showing the ATA's "cartoons" that clearly (IMHO) misrepresent the facts and portray business and general aviation in a bad light.

I worked for the airlines, I've flown GA, and I now work for corporate. My personal thoughts are that user fees do nothing to help the state of our industry. If it were up to me Marion Blakey would be fired immediately. She's done more to harm our nation's aviation system than any other person or organization...

FlyerJosh

As far as corporate paying their share- I'll gladly start writing checks when the airlines get cut off from government subsidies towards bankruptcies, pension plans, post 9/11 programs, etc.

The way I see it, is that aviation is a benefit to ALL citizens- even those who never fly. Air commerce brings businesses and corporate growth. Air commerce brings goods and household products to the market. Air commerce drives a good portion of our country (as evidenced by the post 9/11 impact).

Half of the cost of the air transport system should come from the general fund. The other half (regardless of operation), should come from fuel taxes. That way- those people who are richer pay their share (assumably since they can afford bigger aircraft). Same goes with companies. Likewise, the fuel tax should be EVEN ACROSS THE BOARD. None of this BS where the airlines get a fuel tax deduction and everybody else sees a $.75 increase per gallon.

Right now isn't working- but user fees AREN'T the way to go. Honestly, I would have no problem flying VFR at 17500' on most of my flights should european style costs ever become the norm here in the US (my average stage length is 100 NM). In the end user fees do nothing to benefit ANYBODY.

HSLD

And there is part of the problem, ATC upgrades won't happen because congress uses the Aviation Trust Fund to offset the federal deficit. There hasn't been any money in that account for over a decade.