UAL Application mess???
 

Hey, anyone out there having trouble figuring out how UAL wants flight experience recorded? I am open to the real possibility that I am retarded... (Being that I fly for Mesa and all don't help none in that category... :D)

The (revised) instructions are here

The problem I face is at the top of the page where they emphatically instruct applicants to "Report only the PIC/SIC time since you received your commercial certificate or military wings."

I decided to just list 121 experience since I only have a couple hundred hours in 1-bangers and maybe 20 in 2-bangers after the commercial license, and yet got this email today (I added the bold area in P2):
==================================
Thank you for submitting your application for the Pilot position with United Airlines. We are presently reviewing all candidate credentials for our pilot openings. In doing so, we have discovered an inconsistency in how candidates have recorded flight time on the second portion of the application. Therefore, we would like you to review the new Instructions for Recording Flight Time posted on www.united.com/pilot.

Please take the time to review the edited instructions and resubmit your assessment (flight time, experience and education) even if you believe you interpreted the instructions correctly during your initial application. Please fill out an online assessment questionnaire as soon as possible.

We thank you for your interest in United Airlines.



Best regards,
Human Resources Department
United Airlines
===============================
:confused:
What gets me is that the second part they talk about there is quick-pick style (0-999, 1000-2000 etc etc), so how could there be inconsistencies? Does not compute.

Seems like just a bunch of stupid busy-work anyhow. Why care about subtracting-out a couple hundred hours in a gosh-darned C-150? WTF... over.

Gosh, I'm fired even before I got interviewed!!! If there are any other peeps out there havin' trouble, lemme know.

Hi!

From what I've read, both about pre 911 UAL and post, if you want a job, you need to record your hours accurately.

It sounds like you have a paper logbook, which I DON'T reccomend, for just such an occasion as the UAL app.

You need to make sure that, as much as possible, EVERY hour of time that is in your logbook that meets the requirement that UAL is asking for goes on the app.

They WILL compare your logbook vs. the application, and if there are discrepancies they will be all over you.

I know it says time AFTER commercial, so start the day after for the PIC/SIC time that is applicable.

ALSO, make sure the PIC meets UAL definitions, which is you signed for the aircraft, not just type rated and flying. If you are responsible, you get PIC. For example, my T-37 and T-38 SOLO time don't count as PIC, because MY INSTRUCTOR was responsible, even though he wasn't in the aircraft!!!

That's the way it goes.

cliff
YIP

PS-Good luck! I hope you get it!

I fail to understand why UAL made the flight time portion so difficult. All of the other airlines (or "Air Lines" in Delta's case) accepting applications don't have such requirements, so who does UAL think they are?

Cliff, yes, e-logbooks are real nice for these purposes, but for some of us they didn't exist or weren't practical when we started flying. These e-logbooks only really got practical 5 or so years ago when they hit PDAs. For some of us converting over would have been a ridiculously onerous process, so we didn't.

Regardless, UAL had similar hours sorting requirements last time they hired back in the '90s when everyone had paper logbooks. I recall that the people who actually got hired were the ones making spreadsheets and having fancy tabs in their logbooks. I think United requires this just to weed out the feeble minded.

The "professors" live up to their reputation again.

JP,
UAL didn't make it difficult for those with a paper logbook, they made the hours portion what they wanted. Remember THEY are the ones doing the hiring.
If you want a shot at an interview you will gonk through your logbooks.
UAL interviews previously have been onerous with them attempting to antagonize you into giving them a reason not to hire you. There was one particular individual (gender not identified but old UAL guys will know of whom I speak) who had it in against military guys and quite a few of my buds who are outstanding pilots and people didn't get hired. I listened to what questions they were asked, and how they were asked and was absolutely stunned.
Don't focus on what's tough (re-doing your logbooks into what UAL / company X wants) but do focus on what you are going to be asked and how you are going to answer it as that is what really gets you hired.
Biff

Well I think that's pretty much what I was saying. I don't think they're discriminating against those of us with paper logbooks, and in fact, pointed out that United hired this way last time too.

The point you missed is WHY does United feel they need to make the hours portion so onerous. All I can figure is that they are using it as a weed out technique.

I have many friends over there, and several of them were actually on the hiring board last time. They will flat out tell you that UAL is big on weeding people out, because "you have 10,000 applicants with very similar qualifications, you need something to set them apart". I've heard many stories of antagonistic interviews that began with "if you're here, you already have the job. Try not to talk your way out of it".

As for your squadron buddies who got shot down, I'm sure they went to delta and did just fine. Where they should have gone anyhow. The culture over there is much more military friendly that United.

Uniteds interview is very confrontational. It's part of their persona and their application process lends itself well to that mentality. Right or wrong it is how they do it. What's funny is however anal they are with their flight times you can get a job with a GED or as a foreigner!!! So as long as you can do 5th grade math or speak basic english you are qualified.

hmmm
 

Thanks for the input, gang...

Well, dag nabbit, time to get out ye ol' calculator, a nice big pencil and red eraser, and go to town doing 1st grader math so I can prove myself to the HR dept. for a job that requires no less than 10 FAA licenses and a college degree :rolleyes:. Professors they may be, but I think they are professors of Sham-Poo if you get my drift there.

Long live the paper logbook- I am a stubborn Luddite (jackass?) in that respect I suppose. I 've heard, "Yea my batteries died and I lost a bunch of data so I have to go to MX and find the old AFML's to get the times I flew for a period of two weeks last month..." a few too often (of course, at Mesa we don't have ACARS so we have to call the times in and they are ALWAYS inaccurate- to the tune of 50 hours this year alone in my case... so we can't reliably gt them off sabre... just let's me time out that much earlier I guess). Having to do that would just suck, and carrying a paper logbook just to transfer it over to electronic at home sounds a little too much like work to me :mad:.

hmmm
 

Ya know, I oughta do it in Roman Numerals just to cheeze them off! :D

ERJ Driver how is the app process going? I am about to start mine-
I too will be using "paper" log books (3) to get the job done. We will see if I can get it right the first time.

I have also read over the revised Instructions for recording flight time and my confusion is: "PIC for this purpose is defined as CA/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls"
It would be easy to just list my CA time as CA in a DHC-8 and nothing more. But I have over 600 hrs PIC time in multi-engine piston, most of it as a MEI. Should I also count this? Any thoughts to the confusion. What is UAL definition of CA?

Hey man, that's the question!!! I don't know- are they purposely being vague? Heck, why didn't they just use airline apps like everyone else... :confused: I figure I am going to leave off all my commercial 1 and 2 banger time- it'll amount to about 200-300 toward my total time (instructor time most of it, so that is the same problem as you), and that is no big deal. If they question me in the interview about it, heck... I'll just say their instructions were vague and I erred to the conservative side. If they don't like that answer... I don't know. I'm fired I guess. :rolleyes:

I just finished the app. I went ahead and included the PIC multi piston under 12,500 sub-part. I already have 1000 hrs PIC turbine, but I was not sure what to do the the rest of the multi PIC time. Your right it is vague. I will get an e-mail from them if the second assesment does not match the first.
They should just stick to 121 or 135 PIC time and be done with it!

When I finished mine, I checked the box that said "have a copy of this app emailed to you." Did anyone else do that, and if so, have you received it?? I finished my app on Monday, and still haven't received it...:confused:

I think it's an automated process because I received mine right away. Try it again. Maybe your junk email filter grabbed it by mistake.

yea, I got mine pronto too...

Well, I can only guess, but since you're probably not going to get a response here from the UAL HR department, here goes...

I would say that as an instructor, you ARE the PIC and ARE responsible for the aircraft. Therefore, it counts just as much as when you're the captain and the FO is flying the airplane. I'd say count your CFI multi time.

I too have paper logbooks, but I am a little behind in them. I have all of my total times, all in the same aircraft and position that need to be caught up, but no record of actual, night, etc. I went back through my logbook and took the average amount of actual, night, etc. with the same type of flying and made a spreadsheet to figure out the average amount of actual/night time per hour. Should I try to put in the time as I have previously, or just make one total entry at the bottom of the page with a foot note? I am pretty conservative with what I will log as actual time (only in departure or arrival phase), so my totals will be less than most. I think it is kind of ridiculous that it would matter after being at a 121 carrier for 7 plus years, but I can see the weed out factor as well.

my suggestion...

do the application...then a seperate set of "united logbooks" that match...

tuheeeeheeeheee....:D

Hi!

Utah CRJ Pilot: UAL is known for being a stickler with logbooks and time. I assume they won't change now.

First, get and electronic logbook and put all your data in it. When you're done, print it up. Keep the elec logbook up to date and printe additional pages as needed. This will solve the problem of the inst and night time that wasn't logged properly. Whatever you do, don't bring that old handwritten logbook with all those corrections in.

Next, log night whenever it's night, and inst whenever you're IMC ALL the time during your flights, not just the arrival/departure phase.

There is some variation on logging inst time. What I do is look out the window. If I can maintain control of the plane it is VMC. If I have to use the instruments to tell which side is up, it's IMC.

Good luck!

cliff
YIP

I would say don't leave out any time.

Pre 9/11, "I see you have 100 more hours jet PIC in your logbook than you put on your application. I'm sorry, thanks for coming."

Don't think you can fudge your way through about discrepancies, unless time have changed.:rolleyes:

My suggestion: apply some where else If the current employees don’t want to be there why would you??

And why would someone put up with that much hassle in the application process?

Hi!

It looks like a lot of guys aren't putting up with it:

From another board....

cliff
LRD

United is using the same system as Airtran, FWIW. But the Airtran version is much less complicated.

Yeah, pocket calculators and digital watches were in 007 movies when I started flying. They did not have computer logbook programs for the Apple IIe I talked my parents into shelling out $3,500 for in 1983.

For comparison, I bought a nice Piper Tri Pacer just after high school for $7,500. That would make that Apple II a $16,000 purchase in today's money. For a lot of the folks in their late 30's, or early 40's, computer logbooks just did not exist.