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Old 08-02-2007, 10:23 AM   #11  
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Originally Posted by rk772 View Post
I'm confused with your numbers for IAH 756 FO. According to the bid, there are 0 vacancies for this position. How would new-hires be awarded this position if current CAL pilots can't hold it.
I'm still pretty new, so forgive my ignorance of how all this works.
What you are referring too is secondary vacancies. The bid that was posted is the starting point. Yes there were no IAH 756 FO vacancies on the bid. However as people move around to fill the 176 CA Vacancies and the 276 FO vacancies secondary vacancies (like what will be created on the IAH B756 FO) will be created.
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:25 AM   #12  
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The following is a post of mine under the same thread I posted on flight info. I reposted here for those that are interested.

Mike,

I agree with your frustrations on how their (manpower planning) math never equals are basic math skills. I have been studying these bids for twenty years and I would have no hair left if I pulled some out every time I tried compare the numbers on the current bid from the previous bid.

This is how manpower planning (really flight operations aka Abbott) make the bid show what they want the end result to be. They just change all of the numbers, vacancies, reductions, active pilots etc. to equal what they want.

Lets look at the current numbers on this bid.

System ALL

Retirements 91
Active pilots 4196 ****
Min total pilots 4639
Max total pilots 4642
Captain Vacancies 176
First Officer Vacancies 270
Total Vacancies 446

First of all lets look at the active pilots number ****
All management pilots (including flight instructors), LTD pilots, Sick Leave, Those on FTFPL for ALPA, those projected to retire on this or previous bids but still on property and any other pilot who is double bid is NOT counted in this number.

Secondly this is where the funny math comes into place. The last bid had 392 vacancies essentially 392 pilots had to be hired. I counted them last month and I'm not going to do so again (to time consuming) but we have only hired approximately 232 pilots since the last bid was posted until this bid was posted. Leaving 160 unfilled positions from the last system bid prior to this bid. Which really means we are rebidding 160 of the 446 new positions or vacancies on this bid thus meaning this bid only has 282 new positions or vacancies. Now subtract the 91 who are going to retire and you get 191 new positions due to growth. How many new pilots on sick leave or LTD since the last bid? that also reduces the true growth on this bid.

You get my point to look at the total numbers they are just a shill for management to show what they want.

On the other hand if you look at the relative seniority of your placement in sub bases IE what the bid snap shot shows or what the real bid results will yield. The overall percentage of each pilot will be the close next year if age 60 and pilot hiring continues as projected.

I explained this already above at nausiam.

Lastly I need to re emphasize this because many don't understand. Use me as an example last bid which is effective FEB 08 had me at 247 out of 372 EWR B756 captains or 66%. August 07 staffing has me at 289/387 or 75%. It would appear we are now at about the half way point and I need to move from 289 to 247 by Feb 08 for the last bid to come to fruition.

However remember system bids double bid (or don't take into account those on LTD, management, training or those of FTFPL for the union. System staffing does. If I subtract the 25 or so in that category today that don't fly the line that takes me staffing wise down to 264 and if you look at the 15 or so who will retire above me on the EWR B756 from now through Jan 31, 2007 that will take me to number 249, subtract a few above me not already trained or advanced into their last system bid position and I am basically where I was projected to be on the last bid right now six months ahead of time.

Again nothing I said above takes away from the fact we need to negotiate a real staffing formula, system bidding section (to mirror what AA has) and other key changes.

Mike I look forward to flying with you soon. I am doing one Madrid and five Lisbon's in August. Sep have a week of vacation and I am supposed to work at the CAL ALPA puzzle palace for one week. Maybe we can fly soon. I love the airplane don't know what I was thinking about on that sh$t box the 737 for eight years and 5000 hours.

Frats,

Jayson

AGAIN FOR ALL THOSE USING THE SNAP SHOT TO ASSIST IN MAKING BID DECISIONS BY COMPARING WHAT % THE SNAP SHOT ESTIMATES YOU AT (ONE YEAR FROM NOW) WITH A RECENT REVIEW OF MONTHLY PBS RESULTS FOR THOSE ALREADY IN YOUR PROJECTED BID % TO SEE WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT SCHEDULE AND DAYS OFF WISE TO HOLD YOU NEED TO ADJUST THE FOLLOWING.

LOOK AT ALL THOSE ABOVE YOU ON STAFFING TODAY THAT ARE ON SICK LEAVE (SKLV) OR LTD (ULA) OR UNION WORK (PLA) AND SUBTRACT THAT FROM YOUR CURRENT STAFFING NUMBER. NOW RECALCULATE YOUR CURRENT REAL STAFFING PERCENTAGE. NOW WHEN YOU COMPARE YOUR REAL STARTING POINT % TO THE BID PROJECTED END POINT (NEXT AUG) YOU ARE COMPARING APPLES TO APPLES. WHEN THE BID COMES OUT LOOK AT YOUR ACTUAL NUMBER AND ADD ALL THOSE WHO ARE ON LTD ETC (THOSE DOUBLE BID ON THE SYSTEM BID)AND THAT WILL BE WHAT YOUR AUG 08 STAFFING NUMBER HOPEFULLY WILL BE (BEST CASE SCENARIO). YOU WILL NEVER ON THIS BID BE STAFFED AT YOUR SYSTEM BID AWARD NUMBER BECAUSE OF ALL THOSE NOT ACTIVLY FLYING DOUBLE BID AREN'T DOUBLE BID ARE ACTUALLY INCLUDED AND ACCOUNTED FOR ON THE MONTHLY SYSTEM STAFFING.

ALSO FOR THOSE UNAWARE YOU CAN VIEW ALL PREVIOUS PBS AWARDS FOR ALL BES (BASE EQUIPMENT AND STATUS) ON WWW.PREFBID.COM

REMEMBER THAT WONDERFUL CAL OLD ADAGE BID WHAT YOU WANT AND NOT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT.
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Old 08-02-2007, 10:29 AM   #13  
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I agree......I have 20 yrs. with CAL. Enjoy being a JUNIOR Captain boys. When the (pinch me I'm a Captain wears off) you will realize the mistake you made.
First of all I for one I am not trying to say things are fine and dandy at CAL far from it. However the fact that we have soon to be 2-3 year captains is something to be happy about. It took me 12 years to updrade and I did it as soon as possible. We could have the best contract ever and have bids with reductions.

Now with that being said we have a POS contract and we need massive improvements in virtually every section. Care to come to work with me on the strike committee to help create the leverage required to get that great contract?

Also if we had a real staffing section, pbs section, duty rigs and work rules we would have to hire and additional 1000 pilots without one additional new airframe or pilot retirement.
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Old 08-02-2007, 03:01 PM   #14  
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This is exactly the kind of statement that management loves. I got news for you. Making CA in two years and going from FO to CA is NOT, REPEAT, NOT a payraise.

Clarify your point. Going from $80,000 per year to $145,000 seems like pay raise. I may be missing your point??? Also, I don't understand why management would love hear that. Not being sarcastic....just trying to understand what you are saying..
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Old 08-02-2007, 04:16 PM   #15  
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Yes, I'd like to know too. I can hold junior 737 CA and double my pay. I might lose one day off than I get now. I'd do more legs and work harder, but not as many and as hard as the 5000 hours I did in the RJ. Why not bid 737 CA? I know the 20 year FO has it good and is topped out on the pay, but I'm just a 3 year FO. Why wait 17 more years to make what I can make now? I Have over 6000 hours of Part 121 PIC on two different aircraft, so the fourth stripe/"captain thing" is not the attraction- the money is.
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:32 PM   #16  
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Look don't listen to what anyone hear thinks. If you want it bid it if you don't than stay where you are. Just realize that as a junior reserve you are going to work hard and it will be frustrating as in future bids many will come in on top of you and it will take a while to hold a line. If you understand that and still want it go for it.

If you find out you made mistake and hate it you can down bid to 737 FO on any subsequent bid and be senior. Or you can wait two years and bid widebody FO and enjoy life.
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:33 PM   #17  
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Why do think they hired all those 23yr old FO's?

I'm not talking about ALL those 23 yr. FOs. My point is we have 23 yr FOs that don't bid CA just like we have many 20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11 etc. year FOs while 2-3 year new hires are holding CA.

Our contract QOL is so bad no one is willing to be junior except those that think a pay raise comes from upgrading which is exactly what management wants to hear.

NEWS RELEASE: Continental Airlines is proud of the accomplishements of our employees investment and we are pleased to announce that the sacrifices made by our pilots has been rewarded with many recieving upwards of 80% pay raises over the last year.

In response to this CAL management has been rewarded with stock options totaling a combined $42 million for the sacrifices upper management made as well during the last 7 years. It is great that management and the pilots can work together to achieve harmony and we are assured that the relationship with our pilots is stronger than ever.
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:36 PM   #18  
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Yes, I'd like to know too. I can hold junior 737 CA and double my pay. I might lose one day off than I get now. I'd do more legs and work harder, but not as many and as hard as the 5000 hours I did in the RJ. Why not bid 737 CA? I know the 20 year FO has it good and is topped out on the pay, but I'm just a 3 year FO. Why wait 17 more years to make what I can make now? I Have over 6000 hours of Part 121 PIC on two different aircraft, so the fourth stripe/"captain thing" is not the attraction- the money is.

If the contract was worth a crap you would not be able to hold that seat as guys like me would either bid CA or not need to down bid to FO to have some QOL. If you two don't understand that then I'm wasting my breath.
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Old 08-02-2007, 09:41 PM   #19  
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Look don't listen to what anyone hear thinks. If you want it bid it if you don't than stay where you are. Just realize that as a junior reserve you are going to work hard and it will be frustrating as in future bids many will come in on top of you and it will take a while to hold a line. If you understand that and still want it go for it.

If you find out you made mistake and hate it you can down bid to 737 FO on any subsequent bid and be senior. Or you can wait two years and bid widebody FO and enjoy life.

Well, that's just great even our strike chairman doesn't realize that the 2-3 CAs isn't about CALs movement but the fact that our QOL is so bad our seniority list is inverted.
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Old 08-03-2007, 01:33 AM   #20  
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Hey I understand. I am just trying to say nothing is going to change until the new contract. So bid what you want. Not only shouldn't you be able to hold CA you should be able t hold 777 FO or B756 FO at 50%. New hires shouldn't be able to hold 756 FO. I get it, I agree but it is what it is for now.

Hey I was in Stivilia's face all the time during the negotiation of this POS. I tried to recall our N/C our MEC officers and encouraged my brethren to recall our IAH LEC back then. I also tried to tell any one who would listen our former ALPA Negotiating Counsel Ken Cooper (now retired) was incompetent. I was threatened with lawsuits for all of the stuff I was putting out but I didn't care. I personally made a big demonstration at the signing of the "Partnership accord" in front of Gordon Bethune, Fred Abbott and Duane Woerth. So hey I completely understand what you are saying. Go blame those who were extremely apathetic, most of the membership back then. Oh by the way I did all of this while technically in the same union capacity as I am right now. I was marginalized and basically locked of the building. I also started all of this two years before the TA of POS 02.
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