Too Old To Play in The Majors?
08-08-2007, 04:20 AM
#1
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Spacecraft, Backseat
Posts: 7
Too Old To Play in The Majors?
I am months away from my 50th BDay and I am burnt out at my current job (Rocket Scientist, yes for real) after 30 years; I've done it all, seen it all, and had to work thru the accident reconstruction of 2 Shuttle crews losses so I'm looking to change careers to something I always wanted to do first - FLY.
My question to you vet's of this business - is it too late for me? What with family, college for the kids, not to mention the house payment, would I be relegated to poverty level pay and the regionals for the entire time before I hit mandatory retirement? I make a comfortable living now >100k, but I can do this stuff in my sleep. I don't care if it's passengers or cargo, I just want to know if it's possible to quickly get to my current paylevel within a "reasonable" time once I start flying, and please define what you think is reasonable.
As a data point = 0.5 TT. As I said this is a career change!
Many thanks in advance.
My question to you vet's of this business - is it too late for me? What with family, college for the kids, not to mention the house payment, would I be relegated to poverty level pay and the regionals for the entire time before I hit mandatory retirement? I make a comfortable living now >100k, but I can do this stuff in my sleep. I don't care if it's passengers or cargo, I just want to know if it's possible to quickly get to my current paylevel within a "reasonable" time once I start flying, and please define what you think is reasonable.
As a data point = 0.5 TT. As I said this is a career change!
Many thanks in advance.
08-08-2007, 04:46 AM
#2
captains food tester
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
If you really want to do it, You should get your ratings and build some flight time, then possibly get a flying job near home part time. I wouldn't forsake your familys financial future by quitting a high paying job to fly planes!
08-08-2007, 05:21 AM
#3
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,588
I would say in one of the most optimistic views, you could make 100k+ flying passengers/cargo in about 5 years. It would be a lot of sacrifice and nights away from home. If you slept in your own bed half of the year then that would be doing well.
Year 1 you would have to go through some very accelerated training program like AllATPs to get your ratings (-$50,000).
Year 2 get hired at a regional and fly as much as possible (+$20,000).
Year 3 get hired as a street Captain flying a turboprop in the middle of nowhere across the country from where you live and fly 1000hrs/yr (+$35,000).
Year 4 get extremely lucky and get several internal letters of recommendation to get hired at a major carrier (SWA, FedEx, UPS) (+$40,000).
Year 5 second year payscale you should make roughly +$100,000.
Personally, I would recommend buying an airplane and flying around for enjoyment on your days off. Maybe get your ratings and be a CFI at you local airport for fun as well.
Year 1 you would have to go through some very accelerated training program like AllATPs to get your ratings (-$50,000).
Year 2 get hired at a regional and fly as much as possible (+$20,000).
Year 3 get hired as a street Captain flying a turboprop in the middle of nowhere across the country from where you live and fly 1000hrs/yr (+$35,000).
Year 4 get extremely lucky and get several internal letters of recommendation to get hired at a major carrier (SWA, FedEx, UPS) (+$40,000).
Year 5 second year payscale you should make roughly +$100,000.
Personally, I would recommend buying an airplane and flying around for enjoyment on your days off. Maybe get your ratings and be a CFI at you local airport for fun as well.
08-08-2007, 05:23 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by pullup
If you really want to do it, You should get your ratings and build some flight time, then possibly get a flying job near home part time. I wouldn't forsake your familys financial future by quitting a high paying job to fly planes!
Tom
08-08-2007, 05:27 AM
#5
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Rose Colored Glasses
Your first step will be to find the thickest pair of prescription rose colored glasses that you can find.
It is highly unlikly that you will be able to earn back the cost of your own flight training let alone be able to replace a 100K income.
I would keep working in your sleep at your current job and let this aviation dream remain as such.
SkyHigh
It is highly unlikly that you will be able to earn back the cost of your own flight training let alone be able to replace a 100K income.
I would keep working in your sleep at your current job and let this aviation dream remain as such.
SkyHigh
08-08-2007, 05:33 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-737
Posts: 392
Originally Posted by BurntOut
I am months away from my 50th BDay and I am burnt out at my current job (Rocket Scientist, yes for real) after 30 years; I've done it all, seen it all, and had to work thru the accident reconstruction of 2 Shuttle crews losses so I'm looking to change careers to something I always wanted to do first - FLY.
My question to you vet's of this business - is it too late for me? What with family, college for the kids, not to mention the house payment, would I be relegated to poverty level pay and the regionals for the entire time before I hit mandatory retirement? I make a comfortable living now >100k, but I can do this stuff in my sleep. I don't care if it's passengers or cargo, I just want to know if it's possible to quickly get to my current paylevel within a "reasonable" time once I start flying, and please define what you think is reasonable.
As a data point = 0.5 TT. As I said this is a career change!
Many thanks in advance.
My question to you vet's of this business - is it too late for me? What with family, college for the kids, not to mention the house payment, would I be relegated to poverty level pay and the regionals for the entire time before I hit mandatory retirement? I make a comfortable living now >100k, but I can do this stuff in my sleep. I don't care if it's passengers or cargo, I just want to know if it's possible to quickly get to my current paylevel within a "reasonable" time once I start flying, and please define what you think is reasonable.
As a data point = 0.5 TT. As I said this is a career change!
Many thanks in advance.
On an unrelated note: there is a fierce discussion in another thread about cockpit automation, specifically designing and deploying pilot-less airliners. As an individual with an extensive engineering background, what is your take on this? Thanks, and good luck.
08-08-2007, 05:41 AM
#7
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Burnt Out:
As I mid life career changer, your post resonates with what I was thinking. However, if you are in the six figures performing a job that is easy for you and which has a retirement (and some stability) I would recommend staying put.
The flying for the most part is great and you will work with really good folks in the airline business. The parts you do not see from the bleacher seats is all the studying on your own time (more on some aircraft and at some airlines than others) and the frequent jeopardy your career is in every time you get into the Sim, go to the Doctor, or even accept a clearance to cross a runway. The flying career is risky - the future of all airlines are uncertain with oil trending upwards.
Very few people in this business can develop a time line and stick with it. September 11th, oil prices, and the rest set many of us back 5 to 7 years. In 2000 most airlines reported record profits. Just a scant few years later most were teetering on bankruptcy and the first items to get cut were non managerial retirements and compensation.
Concomitantly airlines sent 49% (yes, half by block hours) of their flying out to regional carriers. Those RJ jobs are not anything like the jobs they replaced and unfortunately I do not see those positions coming back to the majors. Delta's seniority list went from nearly 12,000 to 6,700 and the regionals hired something like 5,000 to 6,000 pilots to do the DAL code flying. There has been a fundamental and permanent shift in where the flying jobs are. Even worse, these regional carriers do not have a brand and several are owned under one corporate structure allowing management to shift airplanes back and forth to try to shake out the senior pilots who make good money. At ASA we had airplanes taken by SkyWest, taken by Comair, we took some back from Comair, got some from Independence - etc... in other words, if you demand a raise say adios to your job (the threats are worse than the reality - but it keeps the regional profession from achieving the standards you would expect)
You can afford to fly and many of my rocket engineer friends overcome their boredom with a Vans RV4, or RV6. You can fly when you want, turn it upside down when you get bored, inspect and repair it yourself and not have to live in moldy hotel rooms for 20 days a month. Flying is not checking EPR, turning autothrottles on and getting the autopilot at 500 feet just to dial numbers and type until you turn the thing off 3 miles from the destination. Flying is taking a SuperCub to somplace where the fishing is good, or hanging out with your friends at Oshkosh.
I just got my dream job with Delta & I'm very happy with the career move at the moment. But even here it will take three years to match my wages from 10 years ago, not even counting inflation. With inflation the Delta number pushes out to a Captain upgrade. If I had stayed put, I would be enjoying low six figures, an easy job (no study), home every night, a company car and a retirement that pays around 60 to 80% of my pre-retirement salary. And even at Delta, I keep my old boss's phone number right below my computer monitor - just in case. And I keep savings of several years' worth of income - again, just in case.
Everything in this business is seniority - pay, equipment, schedule. It is much easier to recommend this job to kids (no offense to those under 30) who can take an airline failure, or two, and still have the time to get to the top somewhere.
I am not trying to be negative. Getting out of the office and flying is a great job. If you have over $1,000,000 in the bank and are ready to retire to a job that takes 300 hours a month of your time (away from base), go for it. If you still need a stable income - this ain't it.
As I mid life career changer, your post resonates with what I was thinking. However, if you are in the six figures performing a job that is easy for you and which has a retirement (and some stability) I would recommend staying put.
The flying for the most part is great and you will work with really good folks in the airline business. The parts you do not see from the bleacher seats is all the studying on your own time (more on some aircraft and at some airlines than others) and the frequent jeopardy your career is in every time you get into the Sim, go to the Doctor, or even accept a clearance to cross a runway. The flying career is risky - the future of all airlines are uncertain with oil trending upwards.
Very few people in this business can develop a time line and stick with it. September 11th, oil prices, and the rest set many of us back 5 to 7 years. In 2000 most airlines reported record profits. Just a scant few years later most were teetering on bankruptcy and the first items to get cut were non managerial retirements and compensation.
Concomitantly airlines sent 49% (yes, half by block hours) of their flying out to regional carriers. Those RJ jobs are not anything like the jobs they replaced and unfortunately I do not see those positions coming back to the majors. Delta's seniority list went from nearly 12,000 to 6,700 and the regionals hired something like 5,000 to 6,000 pilots to do the DAL code flying. There has been a fundamental and permanent shift in where the flying jobs are. Even worse, these regional carriers do not have a brand and several are owned under one corporate structure allowing management to shift airplanes back and forth to try to shake out the senior pilots who make good money. At ASA we had airplanes taken by SkyWest, taken by Comair, we took some back from Comair, got some from Independence - etc... in other words, if you demand a raise say adios to your job (the threats are worse than the reality - but it keeps the regional profession from achieving the standards you would expect)
You can afford to fly and many of my rocket engineer friends overcome their boredom with a Vans RV4, or RV6. You can fly when you want, turn it upside down when you get bored, inspect and repair it yourself and not have to live in moldy hotel rooms for 20 days a month. Flying is not checking EPR, turning autothrottles on and getting the autopilot at 500 feet just to dial numbers and type until you turn the thing off 3 miles from the destination. Flying is taking a SuperCub to somplace where the fishing is good, or hanging out with your friends at Oshkosh.
I just got my dream job with Delta & I'm very happy with the career move at the moment. But even here it will take three years to match my wages from 10 years ago, not even counting inflation. With inflation the Delta number pushes out to a Captain upgrade. If I had stayed put, I would be enjoying low six figures, an easy job (no study), home every night, a company car and a retirement that pays around 60 to 80% of my pre-retirement salary. And even at Delta, I keep my old boss's phone number right below my computer monitor - just in case. And I keep savings of several years' worth of income - again, just in case.
Everything in this business is seniority - pay, equipment, schedule. It is much easier to recommend this job to kids (no offense to those under 30) who can take an airline failure, or two, and still have the time to get to the top somewhere.
I am not trying to be negative. Getting out of the office and flying is a great job. If you have over $1,000,000 in the bank and are ready to retire to a job that takes 300 hours a month of your time (away from base), go for it. If you still need a stable income - this ain't it.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 08-08-2007 at 06:11 AM.
08-08-2007, 05:48 AM
#8
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Space Program
Originally Posted by Oldfreightdawg
Well, it depends. How fast can you get your ratings? Comm, instr, multi will put you close to regional minimums. 2-3 years at a regional to build time for a major. Top pax and cargo jobs can pay 100K by year 3 or 4 ( go to the "airline" overview on the main page, find the hourly wages at each carrier and multiply by 1000 to figure annual pay). Length of time to obtain your rating is the biggest question mark. 2-3 years with work and family? If you quit work and train full time, maybe 18 months or less depending on your level of skill. At the outside: 5 to 8 years to earn what you earn now. If the change to mandatory retirement at 65 goes thru, you COULD have 7 to 10 years of pilots asking: why the hell did you do this?
On an unrelated note: there is a fierce discussion in another thread about cockpit automation, specifically designing and deploying pilot-less airliners. As an individual with an extensive engineering background, what is your take on this? Thanks, and good luck.
On an unrelated note: there is a fierce discussion in another thread about cockpit automation, specifically designing and deploying pilot-less airliners. As an individual with an extensive engineering background, what is your take on this? Thanks, and good luck.
Yea, My father is a retired Aerospace Engineer who specialised in trajectory and re-entry. He tells me that the space program is almost entirely automated. What about that?
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
08-08-2007, 06:12 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-737
Posts: 392
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Yea, My father is a retired Aerospace Engineer who specialised in trajectory and re-entry. He tells me that the space program is almost entirely automated. What about that?
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Skyhigh
Had I known your dad was an engineer, and you've undoubtedly based some of your argument from his input, you could have saved me a considerable amount of typing had you mentioned this earlier. I still want to heard from Bunrtout on the subject.
08-08-2007, 06:15 AM
#10
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Yea
Originally Posted by Oldfreightdawg
Okay, I wasn't trying to be in your face, the post appears after yours because I don't type very fast, purely coincidental. But you have to admit it's pretty funny.
Had I known your dad was an engineer, and you've undoubtedly based some of your argument from his input, you could have saved me a considerable amount of typing had you mentioned this earlier. I still want to heard from Bunrtout on the subject.
Had I known your dad was an engineer, and you've undoubtedly based some of your argument from his input, you could have saved me a considerable amount of typing had you mentioned this earlier. I still want to heard from Bunrtout on the subject.
It was funny.
SkyHigh
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