so what does a pension look like then??? How much per year what kind of beneifits?

I don't think the problem has been the basic pension idea; it's the funding requirements that the law demands. Companies have been able to delay funding until they're so far behind they can't catch up. During the stock market boom of the late 90's the companies made no contributions because they pension assets were increasing along with the stock market. This was fine until the bottom fell out. The ironic thing was that no contributions were made when the airlines were making their largest profits. Legal but stupid.

The 401k idea also has fundamental limitations compared to group pension funds. Mainly, how long are you going to live in retirement? If you live to be 100 and you planned your 401K saving to only live to the statistical average of 74 you're going to be eating roman noodles for a quarter century. A group plan has the ability to cover many variables because some participants will die well before the statistical average and the plan can cover the anomalies.

Also, your argument that your pension is funded by the next generation has turned out to be true, but shouldn’t be. The law should demand that the company contribute enough during your tenure to purchase an annuity at your retirement.

The death of the defined benefit plan is not something to be celebrated. We’re all worse off.

UAL was able to use "credits" attained during the time the plan was over-funded to legally avoid payments for quite some time. The laws that were passed to "protect" the worker, actually worked against us.

In many parts of the world, this would be totally illegal.

so it sounds like the way these pensions are funded is the problem. What does a pension look like though?? 75% of your last pay 50%? Im really not all the informed on current pensions or the good ol days pensions either? Wondering if someone could fill me in.

I can only tell you what the Delta pension plan looked like...of course we are about to get hosed, but here`s what
we contracted for. Take the best concecutive 36 months out of your final 10 years, divide by 3.Then take 60% of that. That is the promised annual pension amount. Subtract 3 1/2% for every year you bail out early. It is possible to take 1/2 of your projected total retirement amount as a lump sum (everyone does) the projection is
based on a
life span of 14years after retirement at age 60. The other half is paid on the first of each month. There are a couple of other stipulations, but that pretty well sums it up. When we finally finished getting hosed, the monthly amount will go bye-bye and the PBGC will be taking over the plan. I`m planning to collect about 30% on the dollar when this happens. I`ve been retired for 8 years, have the house paid for, kids educated and gone, still have the same wife that I started with 43 years ago, so I`m in good shape. Others aren`t so lucky. Save your money boys,
no one knows what the hell is gonna happen in the future.

Great advice, thanks for bringing your experience and insight to the boards.

interesting.... I did some lengthy calculations earlier today. I started at age 24 with pay around 20,000(express jet) and went to age 60 with a top pay of somewhere around 160,000(continental). 10 years at express jet with a 4 year upgrade and the rest with continental with a 10 year stay at FO and a 4 year period where times are bad enough to go back to FO. I went with a 100% match of 6% of your salary (which is what express jet currently pays according to this website) and an 11% annual interest on the 401k account(which the stock market has averaged over its entire history) and I came up with $3,300,000 at the age of 60. Compounding interest is amazing. So here another option on top of pensions of your company offers it.

Is this anywhere close to pay outs that pensions offer? And I assume pensions still cover you for health insurance??


p.s. when I find the paper I did the calculations on I will try and scan it or re-type the exact calcualtions on here.

Figure on a lump sum between $750,000 and $1,400,000, depending on what type of equipment that your best 36 months were on. About the rest of it...depends on how long that the old heart keeps pumping. If the actuarys are correct and you live for that 14 years after age 60, then double the lump sum amount. Keep in mind that the lump sum is drawing interest where ever you park it. The medical coverage is a different ball game all together.
Depending on when you retired, and under which contract covers you (remember, they are renegotiated every 2,3 or 4 years) when you retire, the amount that you pay for preimums changes. From nothing, in my case, to a hundred or more a month. When Medicare kicks in, the company coverage becomes secondary. All of this probably a mootpoint. My company has stopped paying out the lump sum amount, are in the process of imposing a Driconian contract on the guys still working a la sec.1113 of the chapter 11 bankruptsy code. My guess is that after that they`ll file for a section 1114 and go after the medical plans.

Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it. I think their is a lack of education in my generation of pilots we need you guys to teach us the ins and out. Thanks alot.

That's some sage advice.

Am I ever so happy we had a b-plan. The final figures aren't in yet, but it looks like a 55% to 65% hit for me on the a-plan. :eek:

Our CEO came over with a "protected pension". Somehow or another I cannot shake the feeling that if his pension was on the line, things would have been different.