How much should a pilot be paid? Pt. II
#101
sky high,
I do not live on a 60k a year middle class income right now, I only need $1800 a month to survive while I am in school. My wife's job brings home about $2000 a month which is enough for us to survive. We have planned our life style right now to get through the hard times that are ahead. In a couple of years when i am making 2000 a month and she is making roughly the same we will be living better then my previous income was suppling us with.
i agree with hfb in that if an airline is posting a profit that all employees should benefit from it. But what is your take on a company that is losing money everyday. should pay rates remain the same or should they adjust to what the company can afford. I see it as one of two roads to save money, option A is to lower pay across the board, or B lay off some employees so the ones remaining can keep there pay. Either way somebody is gonna get screwed Anyone have thoughts about this scenario and what they make of it.
I do not live on a 60k a year middle class income right now, I only need $1800 a month to survive while I am in school. My wife's job brings home about $2000 a month which is enough for us to survive. We have planned our life style right now to get through the hard times that are ahead. In a couple of years when i am making 2000 a month and she is making roughly the same we will be living better then my previous income was suppling us with.
i agree with hfb in that if an airline is posting a profit that all employees should benefit from it. But what is your take on a company that is losing money everyday. should pay rates remain the same or should they adjust to what the company can afford. I see it as one of two roads to save money, option A is to lower pay across the board, or B lay off some employees so the ones remaining can keep there pay. Either way somebody is gonna get screwed Anyone have thoughts about this scenario and what they make of it.
Last edited by preludespeeder; 01-08-2006 at 06:05 PM.
#102
Best laid plans
Originally Posted by preludespeeder
sky high,
I do not live on a 60k a year middle class income right now, I only need $1800 a month to survive while I am in school. My wife's job brings home about $2000 a month which is enough for us to survive. We have planned our life style right now to get through the hard times that are ahead. In a couple of years when i am making 2000 a month and she is making roughly the same we will be living better then my previous income was suppling us with..
I do not live on a 60k a year middle class income right now, I only need $1800 a month to survive while I am in school. My wife's job brings home about $2000 a month which is enough for us to survive. We have planned our life style right now to get through the hard times that are ahead. In a couple of years when i am making 2000 a month and she is making roughly the same we will be living better then my previous income was suppling us with..
i agree with hfb in that if an airline is posting a profit that all employees should benefit from it. But what is your take on a company that is losing money everyday. should pay rates remain the same or should they adjust to what the company can afford. I see it as one of two roads to save money, option A is to lower pay across the board, or B lay off some employees so the ones remaining can keep there pay. Either way somebody is gonna get screwed Anyone have thoughts about this scenario and what they make of it.
Employees can enjoy the benefits of a profitable employer through stock ownership. Outside of that pilots are just a tool of management, a function of the operating costs. A company does not exist for the benefit of the employees. The benefits of a well run company belong to the stockholders.
SkyHigh
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by hfbpilot
I thought about this discussion while driving home from flying the last leg of the week this morning. Airbus A300 304,400 lbs landing 18L, wind 230@19 gusting to 38, windshear, previous aircraft went around for windshear. Captain flying leg did outstanding job putting the A/C on the runway. Until you have to sign for the jet and to fly the aircraft to the A/C manual & FAR dispatch limitations ie max x-wind, wx, low vis etc you cannot fathom the responsibility. Anyone who thinks that no special skills are required or any one can handle a wide body jet in situations such as above is naive or has never been there. Funny all the general aviation guys at my local airport were not flying today, as said above windy but clear. If it’s so easy why were they not flying? Chrish acts like every doctor is a brain surgeon, most routine doctor visits are handled by the nurse and then the doctor visits for 5 min at the end. Does that mean the doctor should be paid less? No, he gets paid for what he knows and for the occasions that require his skills, just like an airline pilot when things get bad. I do love both general aviation and my job and yes I make good money. Do I deserve a raise when my company posts back to back record profits? Yes, if nothing else as to keep up with inflation. Chrish please provide some kind of proof to the working only 10days a month. I looked at all of our bid packs and could not find any lines that only worked 10 days a month.
#104
Anyone that says anyone can be a pilot has not been a CFI.
And talking about needing a college degree is pointless. What are you gonna major in? Most people already think aviation degrees are pointless. Hell I know two F-14 pilots one majored in bussines and the other in history. Yeah Im sure that really helped them in the missions they've been on
And talking about needing a college degree is pointless. What are you gonna major in? Most people already think aviation degrees are pointless. Hell I know two F-14 pilots one majored in bussines and the other in history. Yeah Im sure that really helped them in the missions they've been on
#105
Huge Responsibility
PunkPilot,
I am a CFI and I say that anyone can be a pilot. Some have a natural skill and ability and the rest are perfect for the airlines.
dogpilot,
The public doesnt care. Everyone has a job with huge responsibilities; police fire, military, construction, public transportation, medicine. Pilots are nothing special. If we were to use the responsibility system then cargo pilots should make 18K while pax pilots should make 180K, right? Out of all of us a US Army soldier by far should earn the most. Those guys have some real daily stress and responsibility.
SkyHigh
I am a CFI and I say that anyone can be a pilot. Some have a natural skill and ability and the rest are perfect for the airlines.
dogpilot,
The public doesnt care. Everyone has a job with huge responsibilities; police fire, military, construction, public transportation, medicine. Pilots are nothing special. If we were to use the responsibility system then cargo pilots should make 18K while pax pilots should make 180K, right? Out of all of us a US Army soldier by far should earn the most. Those guys have some real daily stress and responsibility.
SkyHigh
#106
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
The public doesnt care. Everyone has a job with huge responsibilities; police fire, military, construction, public transportation, medicine. Pilots are nothing special. If we were to use the responsibility system then cargo pilots should make 18K while pax pilots should make 180K, right? Out of all of us a US Army soldier by far should earn the most. Those guys have some real daily stress and responsibility.
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
I have never met a plumber who apologised for making $80 an hour. I seriously doubt that any plumber has to go through the training, vetting and other BS pilots do, and we beat up ourselves over making $150,000??
#107
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I am a CFI and I say that anyone can be a pilot.SkyHigh
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Some have a natural skill and ability and the rest are perfect for the airlines.SkyHigh
I guess that my Christmas day CAT IIIa hand-flown HUD approach to a 50' DH was all luck as were my 200+ carrier arrested landings. To think of all the time I wasted studying, training, and practicing....not knowing that it was just all luck. Ya, you're a CFI!
Last edited by SWAcapt; 01-09-2006 at 05:43 AM.
#108
Flying
Guys,
Sorry to have bruised your egos. What I mean is that flying in the modern world of aviation is not brain surgery or rocket science. True, I am a washed up pilot, but I would describe my situation as having washed my hands of aviation. I am bitter. You would be too if you went through what I did and witnessed yourself and peers repeatedly get destroyed by this industry. My opinions were developed over two decades of observations. I started out with the same opinions as you guys but watched as completely incompetent people moved through the ranks. It almost seems like the airlines strive to harbor incompetence. The system is designed to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Total idiots can walk through the job and rely on repetition and procedure to save them. Pilot are spoon fed decisions and information. They are trained to follow the book to the last detail or else risk the chief pilots office. Right now there are 24 year old kids who are doing the exact same job as you guys in worse equipment in more difficult conditions and we do not have RJ's and dash-8's raining out of the sky. Experience means nothing anymore if a 19 year old kid can get a job as an FO for a regional airline without any college and hardly any flight experience. I reached a point in my career where i decide not to invest anything more into a career that obviously didn't think much about my efforts or abilities. Lowering pay, increased working conditions, reduced job security. You can have it. I made more last year as a wood pecker than in the last 10 years as a pilot combined. I know guys who install flooring who earn as much as an Alaska Airlines captain. Even apprentice plumbers and electricians earn more than most regional airline captains. The industry doesnt care about experience or skill anymore and the pay is beginning to catch up. You guys are lucky. You are enjoying the last of the good old days. I am sure that you both earned your wings the hard way. I don't think you can say the same about the pilots of today or tomorrow.
SkyHigh
Sorry to have bruised your egos. What I mean is that flying in the modern world of aviation is not brain surgery or rocket science. True, I am a washed up pilot, but I would describe my situation as having washed my hands of aviation. I am bitter. You would be too if you went through what I did and witnessed yourself and peers repeatedly get destroyed by this industry. My opinions were developed over two decades of observations. I started out with the same opinions as you guys but watched as completely incompetent people moved through the ranks. It almost seems like the airlines strive to harbor incompetence. The system is designed to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Total idiots can walk through the job and rely on repetition and procedure to save them. Pilot are spoon fed decisions and information. They are trained to follow the book to the last detail or else risk the chief pilots office. Right now there are 24 year old kids who are doing the exact same job as you guys in worse equipment in more difficult conditions and we do not have RJ's and dash-8's raining out of the sky. Experience means nothing anymore if a 19 year old kid can get a job as an FO for a regional airline without any college and hardly any flight experience. I reached a point in my career where i decide not to invest anything more into a career that obviously didn't think much about my efforts or abilities. Lowering pay, increased working conditions, reduced job security. You can have it. I made more last year as a wood pecker than in the last 10 years as a pilot combined. I know guys who install flooring who earn as much as an Alaska Airlines captain. Even apprentice plumbers and electricians earn more than most regional airline captains. The industry doesnt care about experience or skill anymore and the pay is beginning to catch up. You guys are lucky. You are enjoying the last of the good old days. I am sure that you both earned your wings the hard way. I don't think you can say the same about the pilots of today or tomorrow.
SkyHigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 01-09-2006 at 06:59 AM.
#109
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
................. Total idiots can walk through the job and rely on repetition and procedure to save them. Pilot are spoon fed decisions and information. They are trained to follow the book to the last detail or else risk the chief pilots office. Right now there are 24 year old kids who are doing the exact same job as you guys in worse equipment in more difficult conditions and we do not have RJ's and dash-8's raining out of the sky. Experience means nothing anymore if a 19 year old kid can get a job as an FO for a regional airline without any college and hardly any flight experience. .......
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
Having said that, no one outside the cockpit can write a syllabus or change an sop or re-write a reg to make a pilot do the "right thing" in any adverse situation, be it a CAT 3 landing, gusty cross wind, or managing a host of MEL's while trying to figure whether the inop equipment at the airport will allow a safe landing, regardless of it legality
As for a 19 year old's in jet equipment, well its a great place to get experience, but trust me, someone will get burned by an inexperienced crew put in a position its never seen/contemplated/trained for. What the consequences will be, well I think we both know, not much. When its lives vs money, money wins out every time
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 767
Posts: 337
My we are a passionate bunch arent we? I tried reading this whole thread...its a biggie! Its looks like the controller gave up. I respect and rely on controllers 100%! When I want to deviate around a cell I want the controller to have his act together and his big picture planned out so I can...I will not wait.....no controller should tell a pilot he is overpaid! On the flip side I dont think the pilot should tell a controller he is overpaid...seperate jobs seperate responsibilites....all very improtant to the big picture. I am on furlough and have been for going on five years now...remember 9/11....I farm, I drive a semi, and I fly (or rather run the radios in the right seat)when someone will have me....and I wait and I wait and I wait for the call...Ive got a hunch that when I make the left seat my yearly average salary will not come out to 160k or higher....so yes I deserve the big salary when I get there to offset the low pay I have been making....I'm telling you guys it all averages out, but for now times are tough. Now as for Zaurus....you can bite me! I was the only non-college grad in my major airline class. College does not make the airman. I may not have alot of book sense but I do have a fair amount of common sense! common sense will kick book sense almost everytime. I dont discount the college degree its definately a higher level of education I wish I had. (the wat I've writtent this post is evidence of that)the lack of college hasnt made me less of a pilot. I can hang with the best of em....in fact I wish I could hang with Killbill....you can be my captain any time!!! I'm a good, compentant, first officer!! actually I guess I'm a second officer...when I get recalled I will go back as a first officer. And Zaurus If my lack of education has led me to misunderstand your post then I will stand up and apologize for my comments. I'm not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
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