Airline Pilot Central Forums

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Major (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/)
-   -   Pilot violated Southwest policy (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/1846-pilot-violated-southwest-policy.html)

RockBottom 12-14-2005 06:44 AM

Pilot violated Southwest policy
 
Pilot violated Southwest policy
December 14, 2005

BY MARK J. KONKOL Transportation Reporter

The Southwest Airlines pilot at the helm during Thursday's snowy crash at Midway Airport told federal investigators he used the Boeing 737's "autobrakes," a device airline officials say their pilots are told not to activate.

National Transportation Safety Board investigators said they found the autobrake switch in the "maximum" position on the flight panel. The system is designed to activate when the landing gear hits the runway.

Investigators are still trying to determine if the system was operable when flight 1248 overshot the runway, crashed through an airport barrier fence into traffic, killing 6-year-old Joshua Woods as he rode in his family's car.

The pilot's use of the autobrakes against airline policy raises questions about Southwest's braking procedures, especially for landing in inclement weather.

On-time issue

Aviation sources said Southwest is preparing to lift the ban on autobrakes, but Federal Aviation Administration, NTSB and Southwest officials would not comment or provide documents regarding requests or plans to change Southwest's flight operation procedures regarding autobrakes.

Southwest spokeswoman Linda Rutherford would not provide any details, policies or flight procedures regarding the use of autobrakes because that system -- along with the plane's reverse thrusters and the tailwind landing -- have fallen under the scope of the NTSB investigation. She confirmed that using autobrakes was not Southwest policy.

A former Southwest pilot with 13 years experience said the airline's decision not to use autobrakes has historically had more to do with on-time performance than safety.

Bert Yetman of the Professional Pilots Federation said that during his tour with Southwest, pilots were told to slow planes to 80 knots using reverse thrusters before applying braking systems.

That allowed planes to stay in the air as long as possible -- with 10-minute turnaround times -- avoiding the "brake cooling period" required when brakes are used at speeds higher than 80 knots, Yetman said.

"Safety does not come into question. It's how long the runway is and how quick you want to turn around," he said.

High setting on brakes

The pilot told investigators autobrakes were at a high setting and "deployed virtually the moment the plane lands on the runway," NTSB officials said.

As flight crews began to realize the plane was not decelerating the way it should, they "took over the brakes and pressed them as hard as they could," according to the NTSB.

The plane left the runway, blasting through the airport fence near 55th and Central, raising questions about whether the short safety zone beyond the airstrip is adequate.

City aviation officials have been working with the FAA on ways to make the runway and safe zone longer. The city submitted a proposal in May 2004, which the FAA returned asking officials to "add more to this," FAA spokesman Tony Molinaro said.

There was never a deadline on when the work or study should be completed, and negotiations were not final, he said. It's part of a national effort to lengthen runway safe zones that has been in the works for five years.

Molinaro said 46 airports have made improvements and 37 still need changes. "Midway is one of them," Molinaro said. "And it's one of the challenging ones."

Another tool

In addition to the autobrakes, transportation expert Aaron Gellman, head of Northwestern University's Transportation Center, says part of the crash probe should center on whether the pilot was using the plane's "head-up display" which provides flight path guidance in low visibility landings.

"It's used in such a way that touchdown is at a very low speed and also puts you down right near the end of the runway," Gellman said. "If he was not using it, he was not using one of the major tools available to him."

Rutherford said the cockpit of the plane in Thursday's crash was equipped with the "head-up display," but she would not say whether the pilot was using it at the time of the crash.

Navigational equipment on runway 31-C knocked out in Thursday's crash was repaired and checked by 6:50 p.m. Tuesday, when the runway was open to accept air traffic, aviation department spokeswoman Wendy Abrams said.

Kill Bill 12-14-2005 10:38 AM

autobrakes are good. why ANY airline wouldn't use them is beyond me. trust me, autobrakes don't EXTEND stopping distance.

cutnrun 12-14-2005 11:37 AM

Actually, manual braking can exceed max auto brakes on the 767 (not sure on the 737) so if he was pushing hard enough, he could have gotten all that max auto would have given him. RTO is the most braking one can have but obviously only good for take-offs. Were the ground spoilers fully up thus ensuring the most efficient and maximum braking available? Anti skid working ? I have heard that SW will not use automation tools on their a/c (such as AT's, autobrakes) due to the cost to maintain - don't know if that's a true statement though.

Kill Bill 12-14-2005 02:02 PM

i guess i wasn't being clear. the use of autobrakes starts braking INSTANTLY upon wheel spin-up so you have braking instantly instead of the short delay while you reposition your feet up to the brakes. i wasn't talking about relying on autobrakes for the whole roll-out. nobody i know does that.

avbug 12-14-2005 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kill Bill
autobrakes are good. why ANY airline wouldn't use them is beyond me. trust me, autobrakes don't EXTEND stopping distance.

I think, and I could be wrong, the reason SWA doesn't use the auto brakes, is to basically stay off the brakes all together until 80 knots (slowing with reversers only) that in turn lets them do quick turns with no concern rising about break temps.

We operate the DC8 in basically the same way (no autobrakes though), use the reverers to slow to 100 or 80 knots and then use brakes as you come out of reverese. Of course runway length, condition, weight, Capt preference, etc all come into play.

Just trying to shed a little light on the "thinking" behind it,

CALPilotToo 12-14-2005 04:11 PM

[QUOTE=avbug]I think, and I could be wrong, the reason SWA doesn't use the auto brakes, is to basically stay off the brakes all together until 80 knots (slowing with reversers only) that in turn lets them do quick turns with no concern rising about break temps.

QUOTE]

Then that puts schedule before safety. Not good.

learav8r 12-14-2005 05:20 PM

I think, and I could be wrong, the reason SWA doesn't use the auto brakes, is to basically stay off the brakes all together until 80 knots (slowing with reversers only) that in turn lets them do quick turns with no concern rising about break temps

Wrong.

Nowhere in our current FOM is there such a statement.



"Then that puts schedule before safety. Not good."



Safety is priority one. I just don't understand how people can think that safety is second over schedule or pay or whatever. We (pilots) are just like everyone else, we have families, friends and I have NEVER seen safety compromised.

Get with it people. Wait for the NTSB report to come out and then you can add your two cents as to what, why, and where.

Lear-

avbug 12-14-2005 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by learav8r
I think, and I could be wrong, the reason SWA doesn't use the auto brakes, is to basically stay off the brakes all together until 80 knots (slowing with reversers only) that in turn lets them do quick turns with no concern rising about break temps

Wrong.

Nowhere in our current FOM is there such a statement. Safety is priority one. I just don't understand how people can think that safety is second over schedule or pay or whatever. We (pilots) are just like everyone else, we have families, friends and I have NEVER seen safety compromised.

Get with it people. Wait for the NTSB report to come out and then you can add your two cents as to what, why, and where.

Lear-

Read what was wrote bright spark. I never said it was an unsafe practice merely a method to allow the airplane to be turned faster, nothing unsafe about it. A few had asked why, I offered an opinion as to why based on how my airline conducts ops.

I realize this is a rough time and my thoughts and prayers are with the little boys family and the crew of the flight.

fireman0174 12-15-2005 01:09 AM

Curious and perhaps someone from SWA could respond.

Has SWA ever deliberately deactivated any equipment on newer 737s to avoid the possibility of a "fleet split"? I recall hearing that point when I was still flying and the older 737-200s were still being used.

Just wondering. :)

TonyC 12-15-2005 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avbug

Read what was wrote bright spark.

avbug,

I am hurt. I thought I was your brightspark.


I no longer feel special. :(



:)




pssssst... written :p
.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:09 AM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright 2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands