Otto,

Nice post. Please check the reality that truly exists. First of all CAL is a LCC
who happens to go international and has different equipment to worship. LCC's where not the reason CAL destroyed the industry in the early 80's. B-scale, lower wages, the use of smaller (oh yes even smaller than the lowly 737) planes with even lower wages are just a few of the things that we can all thank CAL for.

If a carrier has been through bankruptcy they have lost all claims to be the answer to our dreams (CAL of late seems to be pretty haughty). Please don't blame the competition for business models that don't allow you and other employee groups to have the highest pay/benefits.

Lest one of the freight folks chimes in (and some of them are a bit haughty also) I think the folks here at SWA have some improvements to make. We are just bus drivers and we are no different than you. If you don't believe me than ask yourself this question, "would anyone here at XYZ airline miss me if I did not show up for work?" I think not.:eek:

You're not serious are you? How many LCC's do you see flying B777's on 16 hour routes for $99? How many do you see flying around with $5000 fares? As for thanking CAL, how about thanking SWA for undercutting everyone (try USAirways out of PHL for instance) and driving everyone out of town? B scale wages were the brainchild of Crandall at AMR, thank you very much, NOT CAL as you eloquently point out. I have a lot of friends that work at SWA, but you ARE different than us. As Gordon so eloquently put it one day:
"you can fly CAL and SWA to Paris. Us to Paris, France, them to Paris, TX". Sorry, but your argument is full of holes...............:eek:

EWR,

There is that haughtiness that I mentioned. Please don't attempt to give me a history lesson about the airline industry unless you include where CAL fits in. I will go toe to toe with anyone (there is my haughtiness) in airline trivia. Fact is Texas International and CAL tried to put SWA out of business only because they didn't want the competition and wanted to continue to gouge the traveling public to justify their inefficient system. Why fix things when you can just raise prices (even during regulation prices were easy to get approved). Second, you are correct that Crandall came up with the B-scale in response to CAL being subsidized in their first bankruptcy and a recession at the time. When Crandall got caught trying to fix prices out of DFW he ran Braniff out of business and than pointed to low revenues, low wages at CAL, to convince AMR pilots to accept the B-scale.

In reference to how you and your pilots are "different" please do us a favor and elaborate. You certainly were different in the late 80's when I would have stayed in the Marine Corps rather than accept a job at CAL. You were certainly different getting subsidized in your two bankruptcies. CAL is certainly different in its debt to asset ratio and how it needs to gouge customers to make up for an inefficient system. As I said earlier SWA has issues and competitive factors to address or we will be right there with you.

As far as undercutting other airlines goes I will not apologize for giving the traveling public a decent product at a decent price. I am actually proud that some who you feel shouldn't be flying unless they pay a high price are on our planes. If USair or CAL or anyone else can't compete with us than I am not going to apologize for them leaving a certain market. Also, when we do "run" someone out of a market (I prefer the terminology - compete) we don't gouge people just cause we can. On routes that CAL has a monopoly do they charge a "fair" price. I would luv to see some evidence that they don't take advantage of their customers (i.e. 5000 dollar fares or even 1200 dollar fares domestic).

How's that for being serious. As I mentioned before please don't be so haughty without looking in the mirror and remembering where you came from. I certainly know where SWA came from and where we are for now and it looks pretty good so far. Standby though things are always changing in this industry and we will have to adjust. I won't be blaming others for what I don't have (bankruptcy might be the exception).

One last question: Is the reference to LCC for how much you charge the customer or a system that justifies low wages?;)

Okay, from an AF pilot to a "jarhead" ;) here goes:
We are different (different mentality) in that the majority of our pilots are looking for more than an entire career of up/down/up/down/up/down/up/down flying our entire career. We enjoy the fact that we can move up to bigger equipment, foreign destinations, and in essence "see the world", rather than just the USA. We enjoy not having the "hurry up to the runway or gate (you know....the 35 knot groundspeed taxiing we see every day)" and "cattle car" mentality. Concerning your "decent product at a decent price": sure our pax pay more, but they get something to eat rather than a snack tossed at them, and can fly from EWR to LAX or SEA in ONE hop without stopping to collect their luggage three times and having it take 13 hours. They also have a choice of seats, first or coach, and usually a movie or two to watch. It costs a whole lot more to operate a B777 out of EWR too, hence we HAVE to charge a bit more to break even. And first class seats take up a LOT of room, so prices are set accordingly. I too have seen passengers drive for two hours, pay $20 a day for parking, and think they're getting a "good deal" because they saved $20 by flying on SWA. Good for them......... But even Wall Street is saying the party is coming to an end for SWA. Seems oil can't be hedged at $25 a bbl anymore, even by someone as good as SWA was at it. Welcome to OUR party.;)

Folks...bottom line is that the INDUSTRY has changed. Forever. The 70's payscales are not comming back. I don't particularly like it, but it is what it is.

Lots of industries change. The market moves on. Don't belive me? If you live in a small town, just go down to the square. The businesses there aren't the same as they were 50 years ago, or 30 years ago. Even though we all lament the demise of the family owned stores, we still shop at the new Wal-Mart Supercenter, because the prices are low and it's just so darn convienient. The workers and owners in the downtown shops didn't do anything wrong--the market changed. Many werre layed off, many businesses closed. As a result. they will probably never see the same revenues/pay they did in their heyday.

People who made 8 Track tapes had to change. VCRs are all but gone to DVD. The music industry is dealing with iTunes et al, and they now have to sell songs one-at-a-time (just like the 45s in the old days) instead on albums. They will probably have to change.

My point is this: Stop looking to, and living in, the past. It's gone. Forever. It's nobody's fault, but it's true.

Let's spend our time figuring out how to adapt to the new realities of the industry.

Yeah you know us Marines we are a little slow!:)

We will obviously have to disagree on some issues we have tossed back and forth in the last few days. Fact is we both (and all pilots) have to justify our career decisions based on the type of flying we do. I am perfectly happy with my decision and justify in my mind that I like the ups and downs (just don't exaggerate). I will admit that I was a little jealous when I visited Europe and Russia a few years ago but nothing beats Amarillo.


I would appreciate it if you would not engage in misinformation about our flight ops. I personally get no more than an average of three legs a day and usually with more block time and a shorter duty day than my friends at other airlines. It is called productivity. Just like CAL is not the same airline it was in the 70's and 80's, neither is SWA. Unless you have a radar gun please don't inflate our taxi speeds. FOM says no faster than 30 kts on a taxiway. If you have your radar gun handy please give our CP a call with the flight number. Also my wife would agree with your cattle call comment but if done right it sure is faster than the alternative. The new changes to our boarding process announced today might help things a bit. However your description of what our passengers have to do to get coast to coast is pretty funny (and wrong). I personally also like to work our non stops from PHL-LAX, PHL-PHX, PVD-PHX, MHT-LAS, BWI-PHX, BWI-LAX, etc. with another hop thrown in just for fun. So quit mischaracterizing our flght ops and how our passengers have "so" much to endure. Nice urban legends you are tossing around but reality is different.

Great post Clipper! I was responding to those who like to play the blame game but yet don't look within at times to get a reality check. BTW are you former Pan Am 1(I am). Take care!:)

ClipperJet

...The 70's payscales are not comming back....

I'm very pleased, in my airline, that they aren't! ;)

At today's exchange rate £/$:

Best regards

Bellerophon

Maybe it is because I am flying a plane from the Carter administration era they think it is appropriate I get paid in the same wage of that era.

Do we do it because we love the job?

I like roller blading too....and I do it every other day in the summer....but if it pays minimum wage...its called a hobby.

2004 Payrates.

777 CA-319.61 an Hour

757 CA-256 an hour

MD-88 Ca-237.37 an Hour

This is almost 4 year old rates. Add on a 3% COLA if you like.