Over 60 Check Airman and Instructors Coming Back Too?
12-20-2007, 07:35 PM
#102
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by Invisible Man
Could you explain it please. I don't understand your point either.
"Lets start with the argument about "knowing the rules" before hand. Anybody who has been in this profession longer than a few years knows how dynamic and fluid the aviation industry is. Things that are applicable today become obsolete tomorrow. Here is a hypothetical question: would anybody reading this post accept a pilot position if the recruiting captain tells you during the interview that you will be hired under the present contract and that by accepting the position you will not participate in any future improvements under a new contract (after all you know what the rules are today!)?"
Eric commented:
"wrong, contracts have been fluid in the last 50 years, the age 60 rule has never changed until now."
While Eric may have thought that he was contradicting my statement, he was really supporting my premise about fluidness and change - regardless of how frequently or infrequently change might occur.
P
12-21-2007, 12:13 PM
#103
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Both
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by cbire880
Agreed. The only people this will affect positively or negatively are those employed as airline pilots from now to 5 years from now. Once that bump passes, there will not be an additional wait as an FO to upgrade. It was just be "the wait." Once people start going out the top again, things will resume their normal speed.
With that said, its here, we need to deal with it. This should be ammunition for the FOs of the industry to fight for better pay if we are to spend more time in the right seat. With defined contribution retirement plans, making $200k a year in your last two years doesn't mean nearly as much as making that $200k over the first 10 years of your career and putting it in the bank. I'd take a career end pay cut if I could put that money in the market today.
With that said, its here, we need to deal with it. This should be ammunition for the FOs of the industry to fight for better pay if we are to spend more time in the right seat. With defined contribution retirement plans, making $200k a year in your last two years doesn't mean nearly as much as making that $200k over the first 10 years of your career and putting it in the bank. I'd take a career end pay cut if I could put that money in the market today.
12-21-2007, 03:46 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 890
Originally Posted by mundo1
Of course I can explain. The hypothetical question was intended to illustrate the fact that in our industry the only constant is change, and that our jobs are both dynamic and fluid. Here is the paragraph in question:
"Lets start with the argument about "knowing the rules" before hand. Anybody who has been in this profession longer than a few years knows how dynamic and fluid the aviation industry is. Things that are applicable today become obsolete tomorrow. Here is a hypothetical question: would anybody reading this post accept a pilot position if the recruiting captain tells you during the interview that you will be hired under the present contract and that by accepting the position you will not participate in any future improvements under a new contract (after all you know what the rules are today!)?"
Eric commented:
"wrong, contracts have been fluid in the last 50 years, the age 60 rule has never changed until now."
While Eric may have thought that he was contradicting my statement, he was really supporting my premise about fluidness and change - regardless of how frequently or infrequently change might occur.
P
"Lets start with the argument about "knowing the rules" before hand. Anybody who has been in this profession longer than a few years knows how dynamic and fluid the aviation industry is. Things that are applicable today become obsolete tomorrow. Here is a hypothetical question: would anybody reading this post accept a pilot position if the recruiting captain tells you during the interview that you will be hired under the present contract and that by accepting the position you will not participate in any future improvements under a new contract (after all you know what the rules are today!)?"
Eric commented:
"wrong, contracts have been fluid in the last 50 years, the age 60 rule has never changed until now."
While Eric may have thought that he was contradicting my statement, he was really supporting my premise about fluidness and change - regardless of how frequently or infrequently change might occur.
P
12-21-2007, 10:53 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by cbire880
... This should be ammunition for the FOs of the industry to fight for better pay if we are to spend more time in the right seat. With defined contribution retirement plans, making $200k a year in your last two years doesn't mean nearly as much as making that $200k over the first 10 years of your career and putting it in the bank. I'd take a career end pay cut if I could put that money in the market today.
" Man, I'm glad the FO rates were taken out of the B scales in the last contract for sure! Imagine if it would take you 5 years to break 100K!
12-22-2007, 06:26 PM
#107
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 64
Originally Posted by Deez340
Uh....... no. Eric was right. Your contract analogy was highly flawed and Eric accurately pointed out its weaknesses. I could somewhat agree with what your were saying until your own analogy convinced me otherwise.
P
Last edited by mundo1; 12-22-2007 at 06:40 PM.
12-22-2007, 08:14 PM
#108
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Very good point and I agree 100%. FO pay should be ~85% of CA pay as of next contract as a compensation for the slower upgrade. However, I'm already hearing some captains say “well, the last contract was an FO contract, the next contract will be our turn..."
Man, I'm glad the FO rates were taken out of the B scales in the last contract for sure! Imagine if it would take you 5 years to break 100K!
" Man, I'm glad the FO rates were taken out of the B scales in the last contract for sure! Imagine if it would take you 5 years to break 100K!
Here's what kills me....
TOPPED OUT CAPTAINS GOT A $30,000 A YEAR RAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, so maybe it was for inflation, but they got $30,000 a YEAR raises! That's how much my raise was...about $30,000 a year, so how is that a FO contract but not a captain contract?
12-22-2007, 08:39 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by Freightpuppy
Here's what kills me....
TOPPED OUT CAPTAINS GOT A $30,000 A YEAR RAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, so maybe it was for inflation, but they got $30,000 a YEAR raises! That's how much my raise was...about $30,000 a year, so how is that a FO contract but not a captain contract?
TOPPED OUT CAPTAINS GOT A $30,000 A YEAR RAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, so maybe it was for inflation, but they got $30,000 a YEAR raises! That's how much my raise was...about $30,000 a year, so how is that a FO contract but not a captain contract?
I don't really care about who got the most in the last contract as we'd argue this for ever. However, the way I see it the senior group got a million and a half year pay raise over night - money they never even included in their retirement planning.
12-22-2007, 10:02 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 193
The most difficult attitude to accept comes from the gloaters who are 59 years and change the day before the bill was signed. Everyone in front of them went over the cliff and now they ride the front of the wave for 5 years. If I was them I would keep my gloating off the boards, off the flight deck, out of the bag room, etc. Helps keep the paint from getting scratched on the new Boxster while it sits in the employee lot.
They should skip the retirement party for the guys that had to retire in the last couple months up to the day it was signed. Gloating there might net them a split lip or broken nose.
Over time this whole thing will mellow out but it will not be forgotten.
They should skip the retirement party for the guys that had to retire in the last couple months up to the day it was signed. Gloating there might net them a split lip or broken nose.
Over time this whole thing will mellow out but it will not be forgotten.
Last edited by seaav8tor; 12-22-2007 at 10:46 PM.
