Freightpuppy

Oh, so now it's the junior guys trying to screw the senior guys. I'm sorry, but who started all this b.s.? You are either crazy or completely self centered or both.

Freightpuppy

Good post Saab. Unfortunately, pilots eat their young (in this case, they have succeeded quite literally) and this is just another example. There is no unity here.....it's all about me me me.

Freightpuppy

Another good post bro. Amen to that.

Al Aska

Ah the boomers... I got mine .... I got my parents.... And now I have yours!!!

The most screwed up greedy generation that ever was! Just look at all the crap that has happend under their watch,(which by the way is a gold rolex!).

shackone

You would...right up to about your 54th birthday.

That's the problem with this debate, such as it is. The younger folks will all scream bloody murder right up to the time they get older...then watch out for the epiphany that will magically take place!!

maxjet

Because you would then come on here and write that they were "lowering the bar"

WorkinStiff

"It's an undisputed medical fact that the longer you work, the younger you'll die."

Did you pull that one right out of your ass? How about letting us all in on where you found that medical fact?

The origin of the age 60 rule was a backroom deal in 1959 between American Airlines founder C R Smith and General Elwood R Quesada, the first FAA Administrator. It helped a lot that they were longtime friends. American, along with the other airlines, imposed the age 60 retirement. It was fought tooth and nail by ALPA and resulted in a 21 day strike at American after which American caved in on the issue. Smith, not to be outdone, got his pal Elwood, to proclaim that age 60 would be the federally mandated age for retirement. Quesada cited medical uncertainties pertaining to pilots health after age 60 as the basis for the rule. No medical studies were done or presented. He pulled those out of his ass too. The rule was placed under FAR PT 121 to prevent the issue of exemptions and waivers that would have been possible if placed under FAR PT 67, the medical section of the FARs. The Notice of Proposed Rule Making was issued and was quickly opposed my just about every major aviation organization. No hearing was ever held. It became law on March 15, 1960. Oh, by the way, when Elwood Quesada retired in
1962, he was immediately elected to American Airline's Board of Directors.

No unbiased medical study has ever supported the medical claims made to justify the age 60 rule. In 1981, the National Institute of Health and the Institute of Medicine issued a report concluding that there was no medical basis for the rule.

So, again I'll ask, where did you get that information?

The fight over the age 60 rule has been going on since it's inception. When times were rosy and pilots could retire at 60 with a very good company pension, we didn't hear much about it. Now that some of the majors have stripped away pensions thru bankruptcy laws, the howls of protest have begun.

Though I never had a pension to lose, I can't blame the guys who have lost pensions for wanting to change the age 60 rule. I also don't begrudge the one's who just want to fly past 60 because they love it. What really ****es me off are the whiners. You have the gall to call these guys selfish? They're screwing you out of your careers? What a load of BS! Most of these guys were doing flying that would scare the living crap out of most of you. Back when you were in diapers, these guys were flying antiquated equipment to build enough time to get an airline job. There were no 300 hour ERJ pilots then. Life in the regionals, some of them anyway, suck. I know, I flew at one for 17 years, with good benefits and pay (70k on a Dash8) until Mesa bought it. The reason the pay and benefits are bad is because guys will take it to fly a jet and then ***** about it after they're there. Don't blame those who have gone before you for your situation. Don't expect those of us who have been in this business since you were a baby, and some of you apparently still are, to quit our jobs to make you happy.

RickJames

Right on Workin!

Here's more insight just as a reminder on how political the original Age 60 rule was. Furthermore there are some prominent agencies that supported changing the rule ie Mayo Clinic...not sure where ""It's an undisputed medical fact that the longer you work, the younger you'll die" poster got his information but I'd have to throw the BS flag on that one.....

Here's the link to the following: http://www.ppf.org/chrono.htm


Age 60 Rule Chronology

Early 1950's Several airlines unilaterally established mandatory pilot retirements at age 60. ALPA objected, but enhanced retirement programs were then taking precedence in its contract negotiations, so did not actively resist the issue.

1956-58 Pilots at three carriers (Western, TWA & American) challenged the mandatory retirement issue through the labor grievance machinery. All three were decided in the pilot's favor. TWA and American had defended on contractual grounds. Western defended exclusively on the safety issue, which was decisively rejected by the arbitrator.

1956 In response to a general breakdown of the air traffic control system, leading to several dramatic mid-air collisions, near misses, etc., the Congress authorized (and funded) a full review of the airman medical certification standards. The Civil Aviation Administration assigned the review to the non -profit Flight Safety Foundation and requested a separate, expedited examination of the standards applying to air traffic controllers.

1957 Congress created and funded the Airways Modernization Board to manage the restructuring of the airways traffic control system. Then President Eisenhower appointed Gen. Elwood Quesada, his war-time commander of the European Theater's Tactical Air Forces as Chairman.

1958 Congress totally reorganized the CAA. Assigning economic regulation to the CAB, and creating the FAA to manage the air traffic systems and overall safety responsibilities. Eisenhower appointed Quesada as the FAA's first Administrator.

1958 Two Flight Safety Foundation (medical) reports (the first on air traffic controllers, the second on pilots) were released. The first recommended a specific retirement age for air traffic controllers. The second, after considering impact of the newly introduced jet transport aircraft, specifically recommended no change to the pilot medical certification standards.

1958 TWA and Western acceded to the labor arbitrations, reinstating their over age 60 pilots. American refused. On December 20, the pilots at American went out on strike (over both contract renewal and the retirement issues). The airline capitulated to the pilot's demands on Jan. 10, 1959, including acceptance of the arbitrator's ruling on reinstating the over age 60 pilots.

Feb.5, 1959 C.R. Smith, Chairman of American (and a personal friend of Gen. Quesada) addressed a personal plea (that, by its typographical errors [FOIA] he seems to have prepared himself), to Gen. Quesada, acknowledging his loss on the age 60 retirement issue, and seeking an FAA regulation to solve his labor problem.

Mar. 1959 FAA initiates a complete revision of airman medical certification standards in response to the recommendations of the Flight Safety Foundation reports. No concern for any aspect of pilot aging is included.

April 17, 1959 FAA Administrator Quesada in a letter to the Reverend Theodore Hesburg: President of Notre Dame University; "There exists at present no sound scientific evidence that airline piloting, or any other aeronautical activity, becomes critical at any given age."

June 1959 FAA initiates the regulatory process in response to the request by C.R. Smith for a mandatory age 60 pilot retirement. Although the stated arguments were medical in nature, no mention of, or reference to, the Flight Safety Foundation reports, or the concurrent revision of the medical certification standards was acknowledged.

Sect. 602 of the Federal Aviation Act 49 USC 1422(b) Ref. Certificate denials: Appeals were intentionally included in the Federal Aviation Act mandating that the burden of proof was to rest upon the Administrator, not the appellant.

Sept. 1959 Revision of medical certification standards completed and promulgated.

Dec. 1959 Promulgation of the Age 60 Rule.

Jan. 1960 Federal District Court refuses to enjoin enforcement of the Age 60 Rule with a ruling that begins by lauding Gen. Quesada's wartime exploits, cites a Washington Post editorial, and quotes an after dinner speech by socialite-philanthropist Harry F. Guggenheim (with Quesada in attendance). ALPA v Quesada, 182 F.Supp. 595 (S.D., N.Y., 1960)

Jan. 1961 Gen Elwood Quesada retires from the FAA and is immediately elected to American Airlines Board of Directors.

1961-62 FAA initiates the Georgetown Clinical Research Institutes Studies, advertised as a "long-term" (planned 30 year) search for objective criteria with which to replace the arbitrary Age 60 Rule. However, the protocol seems to have been patterned on the 1958 Flight Safety Foundation report on air traffic controllers, not pilots, and enrolled primarily air traffic controllers as subjects, not pilots.

1965 FAA suddenly terminates the Georgetown study during an investigation by the House Government Operations Committee. The Committee found the FAA's study to have collected no usable data during its five years of operation, and no system or capability to analyze data if it had any. Total cost is reported to have been $2.5 million (in 1960 dollars).

1968 Congress passes the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA). The Secretary of Labor (administrator of the ADEA) declares the Age 60 Rule to be a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification (BFOQ)

1969-70 Relying on extremely favorable aging data of military pilots, flight test pilots, and air carrier pilots collected at the Lovelace Foundation, Albuquerque, N.M., in a study on normal human aging funded by the Nat'l. Institutes of Health (NIH), several pilots initiate petitions for exemptions to the Age 60 Rule.

1972 As the action initiated above approaches the hearings and court stages, FAA "loses" the entire Age 60 "docket".

1974 O'Donnell v Shaffer, 491 F.2d 59 is decided for the Agency by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals on the basis of the "record" on which the rule was promulgated. However, no acknowledgment of the missing docket appears.

1978-79 Four challenges against the Rule are decided in four different circuit courts. Starr v FAA, 589 F.2d 307 (7th Cir., 1978). Rombough v FAA, 594 F.2d 893 (2nd Cir. 1979), Keating v FAA, 610 F. 2d 611 (9th Cir., 1979), Gray v FAA, 594 F.2d 793 (10th Cir., 1979) Decided on a "substantial evidence" basis, presumably relying on the complete "record" on which the rule had been founded, none acknowledge the missing docket.

1979 Congress amends the ADEA, creating the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission (EEOC), for administration.

1979 The Aviation Subcommittee recommends overturning the Age 60 Rule by legislation. The recommendation makes it to the floor of the House, but intense lobbying by ALPA (with massive organized labor assistance°), waters it down to a "study" by the NIH and the National Institute on Aging (NIA).

1981 EEOC rescinds the Department of Labor declaration of the Age 60 Rule as a BFOQ.

1981 The NIA/NIH study finds no medical basis for the Rule, but recommends keeping it in place temporarily, with the FAA agreeing to grant waivers to selected pilots to determine the feasibility of raising or eliminating the Rule.

1981 In its response to the NIH/NIA recommendation, FAA proposes inclusion of Flight Engineers under the Age 60 Rule. This totally unrelated proposal was initiated at the request of United Airlines, then losing a court effort to force mandatory retirement of its Flight Engineers at age 60. (This is a repeat of the C.R. Smith/American Airlines appeal to Gen. Quesada in 1959.)

1984 FAA reneges. The Directors of the NIA and NIH criticize the FAA for its refusal to follow the panel's recommendations. The Director of the NIA, after consultation with the NIH, formally rescinds the earlier panel's recommendation to retain the rule temporarily, and declares (in Congressional testimony) that the agency policy is that medical science can adequately identify disability and protect public safety.

Nov. 24, 1984 Letter to Dr. Stan Mohler from Dr. Frank Austin, Federal Air Surgeon; "There is no medical basis for the Age 60 Rule." "I believe this and Admiral Engen (FAA Administrator) believes this." "It's an economic issue."

1984-present EEOC embarks on a successful, long term effort to erase the non-airline industry's reliance on the Age 60 Rule as a BFOQ for non-air carrier piloting.

1988 Aman v FAA, 856 F.2d 946 (7th Cir., 1988) The Seventh Circuit remands a pilot group petition for further findings on the issue of whether an older pilot's greater experience overcomes any immeasurable decrement of aging.

Feb. 15, 1989 Dr. George Kidera, original member of panel promulgating the (letter) Age 60 Rule: "Granting qualified pilots over the age of 60 exemptions from the provisions of 14CFR 121.383(c), will not compromise safety."

Organizations, Government Agencies and Airlines
who have testified, written and/or otherwise
supported changing the Age 60 Rule.

1. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
2. National Institutes of Health (NIH)

3. American Association of Retired Persons (AARP)

4. U.S. Airways Retired Pilots Association

5. National Air Carrier Association

6. Joint Aviation Authorities for the European Union

7. Civil Aeronautical Authority of the United Kingdom

8. The French Representative to the JAA

9. CorseAir International (French)

10. Israel Air Line Pilots Association

11. Experimental Aircraft Association
12. Southwest Airlines
13. Continental Air Lines

14. America West Airlines

15. World Airways

16. Carnival Airlines

17. Kiwi Airlines

18. Emery International Airlines

19. Society of Automotive Engineers

20. Aircraft Ferry Group

21. Southern Flyer, Inc.

22. Mayo Clinic

WorkinStiff

You have too much time off!

RickJames

It's all good bro....