Notices
Major Legacy, National, and LCC

Pilot career

Old 02-14-2006, 08:33 AM
  #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
ryane946's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
Default Pilot career

Hello all,
I was writing on the regional board about pay when I posted my "plan" for flying as a career. I had some pretty incredibly negative feedback about how I was dreaming. I know the industry is volitile (Have parents, friends, and family in the industry), but I feel that if I do as much as possible to prepare for it, I will have a better experience. I would like to hear everyone's "IF I COULD DO IT OVER AGAIN, I WOULD..."
I would also like to hear any strong recommendations (have a back up career, etc...)
Furthermore, this is kind of a reasonable expectation I have for my future career. Does it seem reasonable? How would you change it?

I am 22, a CFII, and I have over 700TT and I intend on hiring on at a regional in the next several months.
I pick a decent, solid regional with decent pay and upgrade times (Skywest, Republic, AWAC, ExpressJet, etc..)
Spend 2-3 years as an FO. Suck it up and deal with the pay. I am young enough that 30,000 is plently for 2nd,3rd year.
Upgrade to captain. Spend another 3 years flying. Given all the upgrade times I saw, this is a reasonable expectation.

So now I am 27, making at least 65K, I would potentially have 5000TT, over 3000 PIC. I think these are reasonable expectations. Now I could stay at this regional job for a few more years if I desired to (make reasonable pay for being young and rack up experience), or I could go to a major.
Even in the poor hiring conditions of today, I have to believe that 5000TT, 3000PIC is plently for Southwest, FedEx, UPS, JetBlue, AirTran, Frontier, anyother "Major" that is hiring. Spend a few years as starting FO pay, and then sometime around age 30-35, I would cross the 100K threshold. My goal, and I get to do something I love.

Anything comes up, I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering and I will just get a job in that field.

So again, I would like to hear everyone's "IF I COULD DO IT OVER AGAIN, I WOULD..."
I would also like to hear any strong recommendations (have a back up career, etc...)
Furthermore, this is kind of a reasonable expectation I have for my future career. Does it seem reasonable? How would you change it?

I have never met a pilot who did not like to share their experiences...
Thanks a lot.
ryane946 is offline  
Old 02-14-2006, 09:42 AM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
calcapt's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 777
Smile response

ryane946


I read an interesting study years ago where shoppers pulling into a walmart parking lot were observed and later interviewed. The individuals conducting the study were fascinated by what they found. One interesting aspect of the study showed how most of the shoppers would not even attempt to find a spot near the front of the store because they felt there would be no good spots available. They didn't even try despite the fact that there were usually good spots to be had. As shoppers were later interviewed about their parking habits a surprising number complained about the lack of good parking and the distance they had to walk to the store. The researchers determined that a high percentage of the folks who parked out in the back of the lot had a generally poor attitude about success and life in general. The shoppers who were driving to the front of the store and getting the good spots were generally more upbeat about life and had an overall more positive attitude.

Sorry for the long post but this story has alot of parallels with getting a good flying job today. There are good jobs to be had. Pilots are getting hired every day. It's not just the cream of the crop who are getting the jobs or the ones who know someone. A recent new hire at my airline did not even have any college (almost unheard of today) and was hired over certainly more qualified candidates (as numbers go). He didn't know a single pilot here either. I talked with a pilot who sat on his review board and was told that they (the board) felt he had a special quality about him that would offset any shortage of college. I fly with new guys on a regular basis and the one thing that they mostly have in common is that they all have a positive attitude and they all busted their @ss to get here. For the most part they are a happy bunch with little "I'm owed something" attitude. They didn't listen to all their peers who told them that they would never get through the interview, or how many resumes were already ahead of them or how their flight time or what they flew would not be good enough. They didn't listen to any of that - they just worked hard and did the best that they could and surprise - THEY GOT THE JOB! They kept working hard! When they got knocked down - they got up!

I honestly believe that hard work, perseverance and a positive attitude will win out almost every time over just numbers on a resume. It is not a perfect world and sometimes the most deserved are passed over; however, in most cases, the ones who work the hardest and maintain a positive attitude are the ones who will prevail in the end. Probably the same guys and gals who head to the front of the parking lot when they shop.

Last edited by calcapt; 02-14-2006 at 09:45 AM.
calcapt is offline  
Old 02-14-2006, 02:35 PM
  #3  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
ryane946's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO, looking left
Posts: 1,057
Default

"Persistance pays off." I could not agree with you more. Thanks for the advice.
ryane946 is offline  
Old 02-14-2006, 03:11 PM
  #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
L'il J.Seinfeld's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Brown
Posts: 1,126
Default

Go for it. Don't listen to the naysayers.
L'il J.Seinfeld is offline  
Old 02-14-2006, 03:13 PM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
L'il J.Seinfeld's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Brown
Posts: 1,126
Default

The absolute smartest thing you could do is to join an Air Force Reserve of Air National Guard unit after you get a regional job. Why? You would accrue seniority at the regional while you were on full time status going to Air Force pilot training. When you were finished with your USAF training you would go back to part time status and could return to your regional where you would be close to upgrade. just a thought.
L'il J.Seinfeld is offline  
Old 02-14-2006, 08:49 PM
  #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,481
Default

Military flying is great for those who qualify. I almost went in twice but I was too busy doing the freight and commuter (regional) thing at the time to take that step. Now I wish I had done it just because it would have been interesting.

Do what your heart tells you to do. Don't listen to negativity, if you want an airline job you will get an airline job. The job is not the same as it was 25 years ago when I started but that is not to say it is worse, it's just not the same. I flew a lot of old, tired equipment when I started out, but I loved every minute. Enjoy your glass cockpit, turbine equipment. It take some of the load off and you will probably be a lot less stressed at the end of the day than I was. Your quality of life will be improved and that is the name of the game. Just turn the autopilot off, do some hand flying and you will stay sharp and be ready for anything.
cactusmike is offline  
Old 02-14-2006, 10:59 PM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Master and Commander of Pipers and Cessnas
Posts: 126
Default

Your plan sounds reasonable. Kudos on getting an engineering degree as a backup for flying. (The need for a new career is always a checkride, or a flight physical, or a bad day at the office away.) Too many pilots get easy, useless degrees, thinking that they will never be needed. Staying motivated to get a degree which will actually get you gainful employment was a smart move.
lzakplt is offline  
Old 02-15-2006, 06:26 AM
  #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
GuppyPuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: JetRight, JetLeft
Posts: 760
Default

I think you find the negativity on the regional board because pilots are now spending more and more time at the regional level than in years past. This is a direct result of "regional" jets being flown by commuter airlines for their major partners. When many of these pilots started their career pilots at regionals were only spending a couple of years at the regional level and then moving on to a major.

The game is different now. Since the industry is somewhat cyclical in terms of pilot hiring, those who start their training when times are good are often disappointed as the hiring boom comes to an end when they obtain the experience to get to a major - the jobs just aren't there. However, when a pilot starts his training during a time of a hiring downturn, by the time they get the experience to get to a major, guess what? They're hiring!

That being said, I sincerely believe that there is a great deal of luck involved with being hired at the "right" carrier, whichever one that is! Right now, FDX, UPS, SWA and JB might be considered some of the best places to go. So much can happen during the span of your career. Some of these things are completely out of control (bankruptcies, furloughs, economy, terrorism, etc...). I'll share w/you my personal experience...well some of it as I don't want to make a long post even longer!

After flying for nearly 15 years I was hired at my number two choice, United, in Y2K. With just over 25 years to go before retirement I thought I had it made. Potential to make over $350k/yr (747), west coast base near home, six figure pension plus 11% in a B fund, paid medical and dental for life, up to 44 days of vacation per year, etc... Never did I think that I'd be out of a job. With about 10% of the seniority list (about 1,000 pilots) junior to me I really didn't think I'd be furloughed. I haven't touched a UA jet for over 3 years now and am working more and getting paid less. There are thousands and thousands of stories similar to mine out there. How about the guys at USAir? Fifty years old, over 20 years at the company and still a first officer. The one thing that these furloughees and I had in common is we thought we had it made. We thought we had won the lottery!

The new reality of the industry is low pay, commuting to reserve and long hours. I regularly fly extra time each month just to pay the bills as I have a mortgage and a family. This means less time at home and having my wife work. One of the attractions to becoming an airline pilot, for me at least, was the ability to make enough money so that my wife could stay home with the children. Now, it is practically impossible unless you live in, say Houston where housing is incredibly cheap compared with other major cities.

I applaud you for getting a degree with some value. That may come in handy someday. Good luck with only planning to spend 6 years at the regionals. That time is becoming longer and longer. I know many pilots who have decided to make it a career because they can't afford to take a 50%+ paycut to go to a place like Airtran or JB.

Am I jaded? Somewhat. I know I won't encourage my children to get in to this line of work. One of the biggest problems is that of not having a national seniority list. If you are a captain at ABC airlines and it goes under, or you get furloughed, you start at the BOTTOM at XYZ airlines. It was extremely difficult for me after making over $100k/yr to make under $20k. My first job after my furlough gave me a whopping 86% paycut! Other than helping me get a new job, my experience meant nothing to the new company. It wasn't easy jerking the gear for a couple of the young pilots I flew with at the new company. Every job offer I accepted, I thought I was doing the right thing. Trouble is, you don't know if it was the right thing until you retire.

Take the advice of some of these other posters. Get on with the Guard. Stay in for your twenty years and get that government pension. Max out your 401k, max out your Roth IRA contributions and don't count on the company you work for being there when you retire. Live well below your means and carry as little debt as possible. Dabble in the Aerospace Engineering field along the way, just to keep current with that industry.

Good luck with your future.

GP
GuppyPuppy is offline  
Old 02-15-2006, 03:29 PM
  #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
calcapt's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737 Captain
Posts: 777
Default National seniority list

[QUOTE=GuppyPuppy]One of the biggest problems is that of not having a national seniority list. If you are a captain at ABC airlines and it goes under, or you get furloughed, you start at the BOTTOM at XYZ airlines.



Just for the purposes of discussion, how would you propose a system like this work? Very senior TWA pilots lose their jobs and they maintain their 20 or 30 plus year seniority by moving to United? Delta? How would that be fair to a ten or twelve year captain at United or Delta? A poorly run ABC airline in your example closes it's doors and puts pilots on the street and those pilots have seniority rights at another airline? I haven't thought this out objectively but on the surface I would think you would have riots on your hands???
calcapt is offline  
Old 02-15-2006, 03:48 PM
  #10  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,100
Default

Originally Posted by L'il J.Seinfeld
The absolute smartest thing you could do is to join an Air Force Reserve of Air National Guard unit after you get a regional job. Why? You would accrue seniority at the regional while you were on full time status going to Air Force pilot training. When you were finished with your USAF training you would go back to part time status and could return to your regional where you would be close to upgrade. just a thought.

Exactly what he said....you'll go back to your regional, upgrade instantly, and in 18-24 months with 1000 PIC and the military wings you'll be getting called for interviews...
rickair7777 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Herc130AV8R
Military
25
03-22-2008 05:22 PM
Michieru
Flight Schools and Training
10
08-15-2006 09:59 PM
kc0616
Flight Schools and Training
13
05-01-2006 09:05 AM
ryane946
Regional
15
02-16-2006 05:03 PM
imoses44
Flight Schools and Training
1
12-30-2005 07:15 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices