Scam: High Fuel Prices
05-03-2008, 05:05 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
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Posts: 117
Originally Posted by carl p
Are you serious with that statement? Sit down and think how much the price of everything around you has gone up over the last 12-18 months. I did not say you could not loan someone money to invest in oil. I simply said that the investor should be required to have more "skin in the game" than a lousy 10%. People act far more rationally when their own money is involved. We have seen the same mentality at work with the dot com crash, and the housing bubble. People will get in over their heads with the hopes of striking it rich. I can't stand big government, but every law governing markets was put in place after somebody got screwed. Oil is a national security concern, nothing else has such a wide ranging effect on our economy and daily lives.
When you say they'll get what's coming to them if they're wrong, who do you think ultimately foots the bill every time markets loose touch with fundamentals?
When you say they'll get what's coming to them if they're wrong, who do you think ultimately foots the bill every time markets loose touch with fundamentals?
whether it's 10% or 100%, SOMEONE (other than the taxpayers) has their skin in the game. if a speculator is borrowing 100% and defaults, he'll pay a price regardless (he'll probably have a tough time borrowing next time around). more importantly, the lender will lose a LOT of skin. in the short term, non-participants in the transaction may pay a price in the form of market volatility - but as long as we maintain unfettered markets, the speculators themselves will beat out the volatility in the long run.
freedom will be much less painful in the long run than intervention. intervention is always fraught with unintended consequences. in the case of a bailout, that unintended consequence is "moral hazard," which is every bit as bad as interfering with free financial transactions in the first place.
by the way, fuel hedging is every bit a form of speculation as what you describe. the act of fuel hedging pushes prices up in the same way as speculation. in fact, if you look at how leveraged the airlines are, they probably have a lot less equity behind the transaction than you would require!
05-03-2008, 06:04 AM
#23
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by papacharlie
please leave bush ....please....you're killing us
Name one major piece of legislation the Ds have passed, especially on energy. Can't drill, can't explore, can't build wind farms because they are ugly, can't do nuclear because it is unsafe... and on and on and on. BUT Hillary wants to tack on a 'windfall profits' tax. How does that help the man on the street? It doesn't but it does whack those mean old 'BIG OIL" guys. Right.. simple solutions for simple minds.
(note: two things to watch for.. the use of the word big and someone touting a fee, tax, revenue enhancement and noting that for the average taxpayer it will only be x%. First big equals nefarious, greedy in the language of politics unless it is spending your money and second, most of the country does not pay diddly in taxes so that means anyone who is making a few dollars is going to get cleaned. )
05-03-2008, 06:05 AM
#24
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Posts: 117
Originally Posted by carl p
Oil is a national security concern, nothing else has such a wide ranging effect on our economy and daily lives.
ok, tell that to venezuelans, who continue to live in poverty despite the fact that the value of their greatest national resource has soared. clearly, FREEDOM has a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the cubans, who have, on a regular basis, risked their lives to cross the straits of florida in shoddy dinghies to escape the castro repression. they did this when oil was below $20 per barrel, and they continued to do it as the price of oil soared. FREEDOM clearly had a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the mexicans, who despite the economic slowdown here, continue to risk their lives to cross the arizona desert in hopes of finding a better livelihood here. again, they continue to do this despite a soaring value in their own natural resources - unfortuntely, their natural resources are controlled by the state while the free market invests in ours. again, clearly FREEDOM has a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the north koreans. they have no oil as a natural resource. but, regardless of oil's price, they have been suffering repression and famines for years. i doubt that they find oil having much impact on their lives.
in my personal life here, i find MANY things that are more important to my DAILY life and will continue to be more important in the long run. oil is only peripherally a national security concern - and it certainly doesn't have nearly the most wide-ranging effect on my life or that of most human beings.
be careful what you wish for. if you think the price of oil is a "scam" and is a bubble, there are plenty of easy ways to profit from that hunch. go for it - i won't loan you the dough, but you probably will find someone that will (or risk your own capital if you wish). i don't know what it's going to do, so you won't find me putting $$ where my keyboard is - i'll just stump for freedom instead.
05-03-2008, 08:54 AM
#25
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 727 VIP Left
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by bbtp
ok... to the "taxpayers end up footing the bill argument." true - occassionally, the taxpayers get saddled with the bill (this rarely happens - with bear stearns, we don't know if the taxpayers will bear a burden - the answer is that they most likely won't). i'll be the first to say that while we shouldn't interfere with voluntary financial transactions, we shouldn't "bail out" those who lose their pants in those same transactions. when we do, we create a "moral hazard," which only encourages more speculation in the long run (which can be painful during short run spurts as would be the case w/ oil now, if it is indeed in a "bubble").
whether it's 10% or 100%, SOMEONE (other than the taxpayers) has their skin in the game. if a speculator is borrowing 100% and defaults, he'll pay a price regardless (he'll probably have a tough time borrowing next time around). more importantly, the lender will lose a LOT of skin. in the short term, non-participants in the transaction may pay a price in the form of market volatility - but as long as we maintain unfettered markets, the speculators themselves will beat out the volatility in the long run.
freedom will be much less painful in the long run than intervention. intervention is always fraught with unintended consequences. in the case of a bailout, that unintended consequence is "moral hazard," which is every bit as bad as interfering with free financial transactions in the first place.
by the way, fuel hedging is every bit a form of speculation as what you describe. the act of fuel hedging pushes prices up in the same way as speculation. in fact, if you look at how leveraged the airlines are, they probably have a lot less equity behind the transaction than you would require!
whether it's 10% or 100%, SOMEONE (other than the taxpayers) has their skin in the game. if a speculator is borrowing 100% and defaults, he'll pay a price regardless (he'll probably have a tough time borrowing next time around). more importantly, the lender will lose a LOT of skin. in the short term, non-participants in the transaction may pay a price in the form of market volatility - but as long as we maintain unfettered markets, the speculators themselves will beat out the volatility in the long run.
freedom will be much less painful in the long run than intervention. intervention is always fraught with unintended consequences. in the case of a bailout, that unintended consequence is "moral hazard," which is every bit as bad as interfering with free financial transactions in the first place.
by the way, fuel hedging is every bit a form of speculation as what you describe. the act of fuel hedging pushes prices up in the same way as speculation. in fact, if you look at how leveraged the airlines are, they probably have a lot less equity behind the transaction than you would require!
Last edited by carl p; 05-03-2008 at 09:08 AM.
05-03-2008, 09:06 AM
#26
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
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Posts: 141
Originally Posted by bbtp
oil has the widest-ranging effect on our daily lives???
ok, tell that to venezuelans, who continue to live in poverty despite the fact that the value of their greatest national resource has soared. clearly, FREEDOM has a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the cubans, who have, on a regular basis, risked their lives to cross the straits of florida in shoddy dinghies to escape the castro repression. they did this when oil was below $20 per barrel, and they continued to do it as the price of oil soared. FREEDOM clearly had a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the mexicans, who despite the economic slowdown here, continue to risk their lives to cross the arizona desert in hopes of finding a better livelihood here. again, they continue to do this despite a soaring value in their own natural resources - unfortuntely, their natural resources are controlled by the state while the free market invests in ours. again, clearly FREEDOM has a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the north koreans. they have no oil as a natural resource. but, regardless of oil's price, they have been suffering repression and famines for years. i doubt that they find oil having much impact on their lives.
in my personal life here, i find MANY things that are more important to my DAILY life and will continue to be more important in the long run. oil is only peripherally a national security concern - and it certainly doesn't have nearly the most wide-ranging effect on my life or that of most human beings.
be careful what you wish for. if you think the price of oil is a "scam" and is a bubble, there are plenty of easy ways to profit from that hunch. go for it - i won't loan you the dough, but you probably will find someone that will (or risk your own capital if you wish). i don't know what it's going to do, so you won't find me putting $$ where my keyboard is - i'll just stump for freedom instead.
ok, tell that to venezuelans, who continue to live in poverty despite the fact that the value of their greatest national resource has soared. clearly, FREEDOM has a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the cubans, who have, on a regular basis, risked their lives to cross the straits of florida in shoddy dinghies to escape the castro repression. they did this when oil was below $20 per barrel, and they continued to do it as the price of oil soared. FREEDOM clearly had a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the mexicans, who despite the economic slowdown here, continue to risk their lives to cross the arizona desert in hopes of finding a better livelihood here. again, they continue to do this despite a soaring value in their own natural resources - unfortuntely, their natural resources are controlled by the state while the free market invests in ours. again, clearly FREEDOM has a greater effect than the price of oil.
tell that to the north koreans. they have no oil as a natural resource. but, regardless of oil's price, they have been suffering repression and famines for years. i doubt that they find oil having much impact on their lives.
in my personal life here, i find MANY things that are more important to my DAILY life and will continue to be more important in the long run. oil is only peripherally a national security concern - and it certainly doesn't have nearly the most wide-ranging effect on my life or that of most human beings.
be careful what you wish for. if you think the price of oil is a "scam" and is a bubble, there are plenty of easy ways to profit from that hunch. go for it - i won't loan you the dough, but you probably will find someone that will (or risk your own capital if you wish). i don't know what it's going to do, so you won't find me putting $$ where my keyboard is - i'll just stump for freedom instead.
Oil is the single most important commodity to this country. It is clearly a matter of national security. The government creating the SPR illustrates how vital it is to our survival in the near future. The fact that we fought to protect Saudi Arabia's oil from Saddam in Desert Storm shows how important our gov feels it is to national security.
No more long posts please, I'm a terrible typist!
05-03-2008, 11:30 AM
#27
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Coach
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by carl p
but even our founding fathers new checks and balances are the key.
.
05-03-2008, 11:35 AM
#28
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 3
Check this out. Takes about an hour for all eight videos.
Interesting story about oil pricing.
1.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbakN7SLdbk
2.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGGjbDjnNzw
3.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q39ic04vhNo
4.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKCyCYz_aHY
5.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYmSGwAumk
6.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbwMOvV6ctg
7.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5HGHsy3H_0
8.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC61X78-OI0
.
Interesting story about oil pricing.
1.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbakN7SLdbk
2.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGGjbDjnNzw
3.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q39ic04vhNo
4.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKCyCYz_aHY
5.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TYmSGwAumk
6.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbwMOvV6ctg
7.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5HGHsy3H_0
8.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC61X78-OI0
.
Last edited by GearDown; 05-03-2008 at 11:37 AM. Reason: added 1 - 8
05-03-2008, 11:57 AM
#29
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Posts: 141
Originally Posted by bbtp
we're not going to agree - which is fine, because reasonable people can disagree. however, in defense of our founding fathers, their checks and balances were on branches of government, not markets .
.
05-03-2008, 12:08 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
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Posts: 117
Originally Posted by GearDown
Check this out. Takes about an hour for all eight videos.
Interesting story about oil pricing.
Interesting story about oil pricing.
there is little direct action the government can/should take to bring down the price of oil other than to let the markets do their job while the government maintains sound and non-inflationary monetary policy. as for the latter, it's certainly debatable whether or not our government has done its job in that respect (as carl pointed out!).
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