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bender 06-30-2008 12:51 PM

Attention United Pilots
 
Just received this through company email. Jumpseat wars are no bueno.


From Jumpseat Coordinator

Important Letter to United Pilots

June 30, 2008

To United Airlines pilots:

On behalf of the Jumpseat Committees representing all of the carriers flying as United Express, welcome aboard. Unfortunately, this letter has been provided to you because you will likely be affected by a difficult decision, reluctantly arrived at by the United Express (UAX) pilots. Over the last couple of years, United Airlines (UAL) has made changes to the gate jumpseating and priority software programs. Several of these changes have adversely affected not only the UAX pilots, but also the UAL pilots, as well. There is widespread confusion and frustration amongst many of the pilots regarding how the gate computer sorts priorities for jumpseat requests. Based upon the UAX agreement tables, jumpseat requests on UAX flights are supposed to be processed like this:

1. On their own flights, UAX pilots are sorted first, in order of their seniority.
2. UAL pilots and “other” UAX pilots are sorted next, in order of their check-in.
3. Non UAL/UAX pilots (“offline pilots”) are then sorted, in order of their check-in.

HOWEVER, the current software being used by UAL does NOT sort jumpseat requests in this order. Instead, all jumpseat requests are sorted as if the flight were a mainline UAL flight. This means that UAX pilots are being bumped by UAL pilots on their own UAX flights. The computer software also sorts some UAX pilots as if they were offline pilots, even on their own flights. Despite nine (9) months of repeated appeals to UAL management, and despite the fact that a minor software change would solve this issue (simply change the computers to recognize the carriers’ flight number) UAX carriers have recently been told that UAL will not fix this blatant degradation of our jumpseat agreements because to do so would not generate revenue for UAL. This position is untenable.

We have now sent a detailed letter to UALPA’s MEC, addressing these very important issues, and we have provided UALPA with specific examples of where UAL has made non-revenue generating changes to the gate software. The UAX pilots have respectfully requested that the gate jumpseat software be fixed within thirty (30) days. Regrettably, if UAL does not fix the jumpseat software within thirty (30) days, UAX pilots will be left with no other choice but to deny all UAL pilots any requests for the jumpseat, regardless of aircraft tail-colors beginning 08/31/08.

On behalf of all UAX pilots, we sincerely hope that we will not be forced to deny any UAL pilot a ride, as we are mindful of the fact that many UAL pilots will be negatively impacted. To that end, we are simply asking that you immediately call or email your MEC to let them know how important your UAX commute is, and to help us all obtain a fair and just resolution. Thank you for your professionalism and active cooperation.

Signed, the pilots of:

Chautauqua Airlines
Colgan Airlines
Go Jets Airlines
Mesa Air Group
Shuttle America
SkyWest Airlines

JoeyMeatballs 06-30-2008 12:54 PM

I wonder how many will actually follow this....why should United Pilots have to pay for the inadequacy of the computer system in place for jumpseating? However rules are rules and jumpseating priority is jumpseating priority....................another reason they should not have given up on scope

FDXer 06-30-2008 01:12 PM

Long thread on this in the regionals...

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...8-31-08-a.html

RockBottom 06-30-2008 01:14 PM

Jumpseats should never be used as a tool in political or company disputes. Especially pitting one pilot group against another! I can understand the UA Express pilots' frustration, but this act is very childish, IMO.

Thinking man 06-30-2008 01:21 PM


Originally Posted by RockBottom (Post 415721)
Jumpseats should never be used as a tool in political or company disputes. Especially pitting one pilot group against another! I can understand the UA Express pilots' frustration, but this act is very childish, IMO.

This isn't really political as much as it is about reciprocity and honoring the jumpseat agreements that are in place.

UAALPA was the one that made the policy change to give their pilots priority over UAX pilots on UAX not UA management.

UAX Jumpseat coordinators have worked for over a year to reverse this policy, including memo to gate agents and Captains checking the gate. And, still UAX pilots are being left at the gate while UAL pilots aren't. UAL MEC continues to fail to even address the issue. So as long as UAALPA refuses to work with the UAX carriers this is something that they have brought upon themselves.

That is why this letter was sent out.

drvannostren 06-30-2008 01:32 PM

Whatta bunch a chumps!
 
Since the union can't get a damn thing done with management they need to resort to fighting amongst themselves?

Here is an idea, how about keeping the mainline flying on UAX routes and parking RJs instead of putting 950 UAL guys on the street.

embpilot 06-30-2008 01:40 PM

re
 
Since when do you other UAX carriers want to be grouped with GOjet scumbags? LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! BTW I noticed TSA is not on the list of UAX carriers that sent the letter.

pokey9554 06-30-2008 02:15 PM

As a CA on a UAX carrier, everybody is welcome in my jumpseat anytime. Even on 8/31. Just bring your sense of humor.

JoeyMeatballs 06-30-2008 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by drvannostren (Post 415731)
Since the union can't get a damn thing done with management they need to resort to fighting amongst themselves?

Here is an idea, how about keeping the mainline flying on UAX routes and parking RJs instead of putting 950 UAL guys on the street.

IF ONLY MAINLINE GUYS DIDNT GIVE UP SCOPE

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 02:25 PM


Originally Posted by SAABaroowski (Post 415771)
IF ONLY MAINLINE GUYS DIDNT GIVE UP SCOPE

If only the commuters wouldn't fly for nothing.
It's the chicken and the egg argument.
IM

JoeyMeatballs 06-30-2008 02:35 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 415773)
If only the commuters wouldn't fly for nothing.
It's the chicken and the egg argument.
IM

why not, the Majors don't fly for that much more, what is like 50% less then pre-9/11, not including inflation. I am sick of the mainline guys always crying how the regional guys ruined everything, it was the greed and ego of the mainline guys that created this mess, not us. I wish the mainline guys would lead by example and stand up for themselves for once..........

RockBottom 06-30-2008 02:37 PM


Originally Posted by drvannostren (Post 415731)
Since the union can't get a damn thing done with management they need to resort to fighting amongst themselves?

You nailed it, drvannostren. Typical of frustrated pilot groups, they start doing stupid acts of desperation. Take it out on each other when you can't get anywhere with management. Really smart.

HercDriver130 06-30-2008 02:58 PM

I see so UAX pilots should just sit idly by while their OWN pilots are illegally denied the JS on their/our own aircraft........if the UAL Mainline guys would GIVE up the seat they know they shouldnt have it wouldnt be a problem.... but then that might inconvienence some mainline guy.... what if UAX guys were getting a mainline seat over a UAL guy... holy crap batman what would the fall out be... but see its "just" a regional guy... so mainline pilots couldnt care less.

i dont like this either... but not sure what the answer is.

Dog Breath 06-30-2008 03:05 PM

Politics
 
I just deleted two posts that were political in nature. I realize it's difficult to discuss some issues without bringing politics into the mix, but please self-moderate and keep your posts within the guidelines of the TOS.


Topics Not for Discussion

There are currently NO forums that provide a venue for discussing politics or religion. While DreamLaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central embrace the diversity the world has to offer, these subjects often are very emotional and there are many different views. In our experience the wide range of views and emotions rarely contribute to a harmonious online community or beneficial contributions to the piloting profession.
Please send a PM to HSLD or Freight Dog if you need clarification on this or any other APC policy.

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 03:15 PM


Originally Posted by SAABaroowski (Post 415777)
why not, the Majors don't fly for that much more, what is like 50% less then pre-9/11, not including inflation. I am sick of the mainline guys always crying how the regional guys ruined everything, it was the greed and ego of the mainline guys that created this mess, not us. I wish the mainline guys would lead by example and stand up for themselves for once..........

I didn't say it was all the commuters fault. I agree mainline dropped the ball, but the commuters are also partly responsible. And I'm sick of the commuters not accepting some of the blame. You are right, our pay is not so great. But there is a big difference why. Ours was forced on us by a BK judge. As for standing up for themselves, they are trying. But it isn't easy when the pay rates set by the commuters are so low. Not trying to fight with you. But mainline and the commuters are to blame. Not just one or the other.
IM

skidmark 06-30-2008 03:18 PM

I read the whole thing today. It is easy, United just needs to fix the computer glitch. Simple as that.

ghilis101 06-30-2008 03:31 PM

wow talk about biting the hand that feeds you. this is bad. i hope uax guys really dont follow through with this threat nothing good can come from this

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 03:32 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 415773)
If only the commuters wouldn't fly for nothing.
It's the chicken and the egg argument.
IM

If only mainline guys would fly for mainline wages. Egg or chicken?

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 03:40 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 415828)
If only mainline guys would fly for mainline wages. Egg or chicken?

Your right. But it was a BK judge that forced mainline wages on them.
IM

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 03:50 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 415839)
Your right. But it was a BK judge that forced mainline wages on them.
IM

Sorry, refresh my memory. Which airlines had pay rates FORCED on them by a judge while in BK? Did Wedoff determine what EVERY pilot left on property would make make at UAL?

I remember them (the pilot group) agreeing to multiple concessions.

I also remember the CAL/AA pilot groups agreeing to a concessionary CBA and NOT being in BK.

I believe the only group that had pay "forced" on them was AS. And that was by an arbitrator.

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 04:08 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 415863)
Sorry, refresh my memory. Which airlines had pay rates FORCED on them by a judge while in BK? Did Wedoff determine what EVERY pilot left on property would make make at UAL?

I remember them (the pilot group) agreeing to multiple concessions.

I also remember the CAL pilot group agreeing to a concessionary CBA and NOT being in BK.

I believe the only group that had pay "forced" on them was AS. And that was by an arbitrator.

By being forced by a BK judge I mean not one ruling made by a BK judge went in favor of the employees. So when management dropped the contract with the pay rates in it and said sign here or we go to the judge. They had no real choice. Forced.
IM

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 04:18 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 415892)
By being forced by a BK judge I mean not one ruling made by a BK judge went in favor of the employees. So when management dropped the contract with the pay rates in it and said sign here or we go to the judge. They had no real choice. Forced.
IM


True, but that doesn't change the FACT that the judge didn't "force" the rates on them. It was what the MEC decided to take it down to, not the judge.

When you say "management dropped the contract with the rates", what do you mean? The company doesn't set the rates. It's a negotiated medium agreed on by the MEC and the company, even during a concession. If the company set the rates, they would be lower than what the groups agreed to.

I get the impression you haven't been through this process.

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 415899)
True, but that doesn't change the FACT that the judge didn't "force" the rates on them. It was what the MEC decided to take it down to, not the judge.

When you say "management dropped the contract with the rates", what do you mean? The company doesn't set the rates. It's a negotiated medium agreed on by the MEC and the company, even during a concession. If the company set the rates, they would be lower than what the groups agreed to.

I get the impression you haven't been through this process.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

The MEC had no choice. It was take it or leave it or go to the judge. Look at what happen to the NWA f/a's when they said no and went to the judge.

"The company doesn't set the rates. It's a negotiated medium agreed on by the MEC and the company, even during a concession" Not as much as you think when you are in BK.
IM

Short Bus Drive 06-30-2008 04:41 PM


Originally Posted by skidmark (Post 415810)
I read the whole thing today. It is easy, United just needs to fix the computer glitch. Simple as that.

This is what I received about it:

"The Jumpseat Committee earlier this week notified you that there have been some additional changes to our UAX partners’ jumpseat priorities. In a previous notice, we had changed the jumpseat priority of MESA and Colgan from a K to L designation, and that is still current. Additionally, we have made a modification to the current K category and redesignated it K1 and K2.
K1 was created to recognize those UAX carriers that place the United pilots immediately after their company's pilots and above other UAX carriers pilots. The current UAX carriers that are placed in this K1 are TransStates Airlines and Go Jets Airlines. The K2 designation is for those UAX carriers that place United and other UAX carriers on a first come first serve basis right after their carrier's pilots. The current UAX carriers that are placed in the K2 designation are Skywest, Chautauqua, and Shuttle America. As always, the priority in each one of these categories (K1,K2,L) is based on time of check in with the agent, and is located on the OMC travel authority ticket in the upper left corner, near the processing agent's information"

So it sounds like the agents aren't doing something proper?

contrail67 06-30-2008 05:07 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 415828)
If only mainline guys would fly for mainline wages. Egg or chicken?

Education time....there is not 1 legacy or regional airline that went through BK without having their wages lowered. Had the airline not been put into BK, the wages would not have went to the level they are at....think before you type.

TripleMix 06-30-2008 05:13 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 415899)
True, but that doesn't change the FACT that the judge didn't "force" the rates on them. It was what the MEC decided to take it down to, not the judge.

This is my first post here, but I got the link from the UAL MEC forum. This issue has me jazzed.

What is your problem? You seem to take some personal offense that United guys are ****ed off at this whole jumpseat deal, and you are trying to prove you understand the United MEC history better than anyone else. Why do you have such a bone to pick with United guys? Still frustrated that Independence didn't work out? Still frustrated that your pilot group voted for a failed business plan, and now you take some special sadism in pointing out other's mistakes?

UEX guys may have a valid grievance with the jumpseat issue if their pilots are being unfairly displaced by a United pilot, but absolute denial of the jumpseat to United guys will only cause greater problems. Almost every flight I have to Europe there's some UEX guy wanting a ride, and I'm happy to offer him a ride out of professional courtesy. But passes to Europe these days are hundreds of dollars, and if this jumpseat BS turns out to be true, no doubt the UEX guy's European vacation will have to be cut short because his first class pass to London will cost him $800 round trip.

If this goes through, I will PERMANENTLY deny every UEX pilot MY jumpseat on every flight. Jumpseating is a professional courtesy, not a political tool. And politics goes both ways.

myoface 06-30-2008 05:32 PM

Or you could do the right thing and ask your MEC to effect the change being requested. Or maybe you really believe that a UAL pilot should bump an express guy on his own flight. dont forget that riding in coach is free on ual. sucks being in coach, but if money is an issue and you choose to deny guys because they are standing up and fighting for an issue then so be it.

Boomer 06-30-2008 05:37 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 415863)
Sorry, refresh my memory. Which airlines had pay rates FORCED on them by a judge while in BK? Did Wedoff determine what EVERY pilot left on property would make make at UAL?

I remember them (the pilot group) agreeing to multiple concessions.

I also remember the CAL/AA pilot groups agreeing to a concessionary CBA and NOT being in BK.

I believe the only group that had pay "forced" on them was AS. And that was by an arbitrator.

OK, so walking back to the hotel some night, some clown points a gun at you. You say "Don't shoot me, here's my wallet. Just take it."

Was this a robbery or a negotiated deal?

My $.02 - I say the judge doesn't need to actually pull the trigger to call it "forced"

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 05:51 PM


Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 415989)
OK, so walking back to the hotel some night, some clown points a gun at you. You say "Don't shoot me, here's my wallet. Just take it."

Was this a robbery or a negotiated deal?

My $.02 - I say the judge doesn't need to actually pull the trigger to call it "forced"

I agree.
Thanks Boomer.
IM

drvannostren 06-30-2008 05:51 PM


Originally Posted by Boomer (Post 415989)
OK, so walking back to the hotel some night, some clown points a gun at you. You say "Don't shoot me, here's my wallet. Just take it."

Was this a robbery or a negotiated deal?

My $.02 - I say the judge doesn't need to actually pull the trigger to call it "forced"

Amen. UAL (and US Air, and Delta for that matter) guys had two choices, take the hit or shut down the airline, forever.

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 06:08 PM


Originally Posted by TripleMix (Post 415960)
This is my first post here, but I got the link from the UAL MEC forum. This issue has me jazzed.

What is your problem? You seem to take some personal offense that United guys are ****ed off at this whole jumpseat deal, and you are trying to prove you understand the United MEC history better than anyone else. Why do you have such a bone to pick with United guys? Still frustrated that Independence didn't work out? Still frustrated that your pilot group voted for a failed business plan, and now you take some special sadism in pointing out other's mistakes?

Well, congratulations on your first point. But can you show me where I'm "pi$$ed off" as you put in this thread as it relates to the JS issue? I've talked about pay rates and how they were negotiated down, but NOTHING about the JS issue. What is YOUR problem? Maybe you are mad because of the weakness your MEC showed in the past. Maybe you are also mad because a regional had the sack to tell your management where to go when YOUR OWN MEC didn't.

Funny, my dad spent 30+ years at UAL. Maybe it's the way you are reading it.


Originally Posted by contrail67 (Post 415954)
Education time....there is not 1 legacy or regional airline that went through BK without having their wages lowered. Had the airline not been put into BK, the wages would not have went to the level they are at....think before you type.

Yep, maybe you need to learn some reading comprehension. If the MEC had no say and the "company dropped the contract" as it was put, what do you think the rates would have been? I'll make it simpler for you, if the MEC didn't fight to retain SOME of it, they WOULD be lower. Don't know how you missed that in what I said. Read fully before you type.

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 06:19 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 416017)
Well, congratulations on your first point. But can you show me where I'm "pi$$ed off" as you put in this thread as it relates to the JS issue? I've talked about pay rates and how they were negotiated down, but NOTHING about the JS issue. What is YOUR problem? Maybe you are mad because of the weakness your MEC showed in the past. Maybe you are also mad because a regional had the sack to tell your management where to go when YOUR OWN MEC didn't.

Funny, my dad spent 30+ years at UAL. Maybe it's the way you are reading it.



Yep, maybe you need to learn some reading comprehension. If the MEC had no say and the "company dropped the contract" as it was put, what do you think the rates would have been? I'll make it simpler for you, if the MEC didn't fight to retain SOME of it, they WOULD be lower. Don't know how you missed that in what I said. Read fully before you type.

I think they would be what they are in our current contract. You don't seem to grasp that the mainline contracts were forced on them in BK. That's why their pay sucks. What excuse do the commuters have for their poor pay rates?
IM

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 06:22 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 416029)
I think they would be what they are in our current contract. You don't seem to grasp that the mainline contracts were forced on them in BK. That's why their pay sucks. What excuse do the commuters have for their poor pay rates?
IM

What do you think drives regional pay rates up? Which direction do you think it flows?

With the rise that was seen in mainline wages pre 9/11 there was a rise in regional wages as well.

With the decline in mainline wages, there has also been a decline in regional wages.

Again, chicken or egg?

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 06:38 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 416033)
What do you think drives regional pay rates up? Which direction do you think it flows?

With the rise that was seen in mainline wages pre 9/11 there was a rise in regional wages as well.

With the decline in mainline wages, there has also been a decline in regional wages.

Again, chicken or egg?

Exactly.
What do you think mainline management used to pick our pay rates. Contracts at Regional airlines and airlines like jetblue.
Regional pay has always been way to low. And management will always use it as a whipsaw. So again it's the chicken and the egg argument. And that's why both mainline (giving up scope) and the regionals (accepting low wages) are to blame.
IM

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 06:57 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 416043)
Exactly.
What do you think mainline management used to pick our pay rates. Contracts at Regional airlines and airlines like jetblue.
Regional pay has always been way to low. And management will always use it as a whipsaw. So again it's the chicken and the egg argument. And that's why both mainline (giving up scope) and the regionals (accepting low wages) are to blame.
IM


So it was regional pay rates they looked at when management only decided to give wide body CA's $300+/hr and narrow body $200+/hr?

Are you sure you want to make the statement that regionals "accept" low wages?

Using the logic you have in this thread, AWAC, COMAIR, ACA (pre I-Air), and SkyWest had that pay "forced" on them. They didn't get to "accept" it as you put. To take it even further, PCL and ASA have had to "accept" a passive concession as management has dragged thier feet. PCL is STILL in that position.

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 07:00 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 416058)
Your previous post was blaming the regionals for the majors low pay. Now you are saying "exactly" to what I said as far as it flowing DOWNHILL, not uphill. So what is your stance?

So it was regional pay rates they looked at when they decided to give wide body CA's $300+/hr and narrow body $200+/hr?

Are you sure you want to make the statement that regionals "accept" low wages?

Using the logic you have in this thread, AWAC, COMAIR, ACA (pre I-Air), and SkyWest had that pay "forced" on them. They didn't get to "accept" it as you put. To take it even further, PCL and ASA have had to "accept" a passive concession as management has dragged thier feet. PCL is STILL in that position.

Never mind, your right.
IM

dojetdriver 06-30-2008 07:03 PM


Originally Posted by Invisible Man (Post 416060)
Never mind, your right.
IM

Well don't be a baby and bow out with a "you're right" comment, if you got something to debate with, keep going. I'll keep it going as long as it's civil.

BTW, I had to edit out the first paragraph due to a gaff on MY part, sorry.

Cycle Pilot 06-30-2008 07:16 PM

If United guys were being bumped out of their jumpseats by regional pilots, then the software issue would have been solved a LONG time ago! The UAX jumpseat coordinators have been working on this issue for a year, but with no resolution. UALPA has decided that it's not an important issue for them, so they haven't put the pressure needed to fix the problem. I agree that UAX pilots may be shooting themselves in the foot here, but the problem needs to be solved.

Cycle Pilot 06-30-2008 07:21 PM

Oh... and mainline pilots should have had some kind of protections written into their contracts to control the amount of flying that went to the regionals. Who would have ever thought that the RJ would have ever taken off like it did!? The smartest union in the world couldn't have predicted how the industry was going to change! One minute RJ's are just replacing props to small airports and the next minute they're running from SLC to ORD!!!

Invisible Man 06-30-2008 07:43 PM


Originally Posted by dojetdriver (Post 416064)
Well don't be a baby and bow out with a "you're right" comment, if you got something to debate with, keep going. I'll keep it going as long as it's civil.

BTW, I had to edit out the first paragraph due to a gaff on MY part, sorry.

Not being a baby about it. Just don't see the point.

Somebody blamed all this on mainline giving up scope.
I agreed they dropped the ball.
And I said the regionals flying for very low pay was also part of the problem.
Somebody said mainline pay wasn't much higher.
I agreed and said our contracts were forced on us in BK.
Unlike the regional contracts that where negotiated, voted on and accepted by the pilots with very low pay rates flying big jets.
Big difference between the two.
I think that both mainline and the regionals have some blame.
What else is there to debate?
I'm not going to change your mind and you probably wont change mine.
No reason to not be civil.
IM


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