Roper92

You can upgrade to a V-6 that's about it..

Sniper

Well, let's take this and run with it then, Saab:

If a 717 is essentially the same as a CRJ-900, than we could also easily say a CRJ-900 is essentially the same as a CRJ-200, no?

The issue here is the low pay, benefits, and work rules @ the RJ operators - ALL of them. As long as the RJ pilots total benefits package remain low, the mainline guys will continue to have to spend negotiating resources to capture their former flying or keep that which they still have. This keeps the mainline total packages low, b/c of the wasted capital spent on scope.

It's either time for the mainline guys to help the RJ guys raise their total benefits, wages, and work rules (the whole package) up, or try to put the cat back in the bag and capture all of the flying they had before the RJ's. Fuel prices are going up, which is making most RJ flying uneconomical. Is it now easier to capture the flying than it is to raise the complete packages of mainline to the pre-9/11 levels and get the RJ operators up to an acceptable level?

Something needs to be done for the long-term prospects of professional airline flying. I know it's not a popular argument, but I'll float it anyway. The economy is down, and fuel is expensive. It will be difficult in this environment to get large increases from managements - there's just not that much $ (even if all the executive bonuses were captured, those $300 million or so would still not amount to much when spread over the 60,000 pilots or so who deserve them, not to mention the other airline employees who've taken cuts and deserve a slice of the pie). However, with fuel costs up, it's expensive to fly RJ's, especially. Now is the time to capture ALL of the flying @ mainline. Will it result in low wages for the next 5-10 years - yes. Will it hurt many of the pilots in their 50's going into retirement over the next decade - yes. Will it hurt current RJ pilots - yes.

However, it will get the flying back @ companies that can get the total packages back up - career shops (be they corporate jet places or mainline carriers). RJ operators haven't been able to do this, and I don't think will ever be able to. There's always a company who can undercut the more established ones, creating downward pressure on the large RJ operators. That pressure then undercuts mainline, keeping mainline wages down, even as mainline loses flying. Furthermore, most RJ pilots don't see themselves in a career shop, so they don't have an incentive to get career packages - they're trying to get on @ mainline and corporate places, not make a career of flying RJ's. Their incentive is to upgrade and move on (for the majority) not make their current employer better. This keeps their contracts low. If mainline and corporate just protects the senior/widebody flying, eventually there won't be any NB flying @ mainline at all, b/c the "RJ" operators will morph into NB operators. Guess what is gonna' be pressured then - the WB flying/Gulfstream flying. Eventually, the industry will find an equilibrium that is MUCH LOWER than any of us could ever imagine currently (which is scary, b/c the whole industry is in the toilet right now!).

It's time to capture all of the jet flying @ mainline. Why jet? There's nothing wrong with props, but the line has to drawn somewhere, and drawing it @ jets makes a lot more sense than drawing it at 50 seats, or 70, uh . . . maybe 76, or even 86, perhaps. Soon it'll be @ 200 seats @ this rate, and the majority of pilots will fly NB's with a small minority on the 77, 78, G-VI and A350 (or whatever comes along next). That hurts the entire profession!

This will hurt the senior mainline guys, who are close to retirement. However, they all just got the opportunity to get 5 extra years in the workforce, if they choose. This will not replace the retirements that have been lost, but it will help stem the bleeding. I know working 5 years extra is not the panacea it's made out to be, but it's voluntary - if you don't need it, you don't have to take it, and you certainly couldn't have planned on it as part of your career. It should be seen as an unexpected but welcome perk to those who were junior pilots during the best years of aviation and had perhaps planned their retirements w/o the assumption that things would go downhill right before they retired - who would have thought this could happen in the mid 80's?

Current RJ pilots will also suffer. About 10-20% of them are career RJ pilots by choice. Fine, but protecting 5% of the pilot force should not be put ahead of protecting the industry (IMO). They can be the Q-400 CA's and still earn a good wage. The junior RJ CA's might get bumped back down to FO for a bit. Most of the industry didn't get the left seat of a large turbine @ 2-3 years seniority and close to ATP mins, so I don't see the issue with delaying the career path of some pilots to a similar path that the rest of the industry took. This will hurt the bottom of the RJ seniority list too - maybe job losses. However, again, the minimums for RJ pilots over the last 2 years have been artificially low, 500 hours or less, essentially. Most pilots before the last couple years needed 2000 TT or so to secure a seat in a turbine aircraft. Those who are dedicated to the job will easily find employment as CFI's and night piston freight pilots, gaining valuable experience for their recall to the large turbo-prop fleet. It's the influx of low-time pilots that has allowed the RJ operators to continue to keep rates down and continue to gobble up mainline flying - the whole root of the problem. This will 'cull the herd' so to speak, reducing the influx of new pilots to a gentle flow of pilots who have the dedication to continue flying through the hard times b/c they're in it for the long term.

This certainly is not the perfect solution. However, we must seize this opportunity while we have it. Mainline management wants to reduce RJ flying; mainline pilots want to capture their former flying; the majority of RJ pilots want to have the ability to move to a career company - this is a win/win/win situation, and benefits both the industry, companies, and the pilot force. Capture all the jet flying (don't just cap it, capture it!), and then the mainline pilot forces will grow, creating more career jobs and more leverage for the next round of contracts. There won't be any RJ companies who will do the flying for less next time, and there won't be any pilots trained to do the jet flying if, worst case scenario, a strike occurs. It will also be harder to resist a group of 10-12 large pilot groups unified together when the eventual foreign cabotage war comes too. If the company wants to fly jets, they'll have to have their own pilots do it.

Good luck to us all. Let us never again have a manager of a career company flying 717's in premium service compare his pilots to a group of pilots that primarily desire to gain employment @ mainline - make us all mainline, and unite this group for the future.

Flyboydan

The management of thread topic company doesn't give two cents about their employees. Also the cookie is apparently more important than employees as long as the higher ups are earning well.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

DEAR GOD - Don't even mention that, you never know...

...but that begs to ask, so what does a Piper Warrior captain make on a crossing to Asia?

TheQuan

Then he should also base his salary upon number of employees working at the airline. Maybe $15 per employee? 15 x 700 = $105,000? Sounds reasonable by Tim's math.
Would be nice to deflate the corporate paycheck a little.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

When the Airtran - Midwest battle was going on I was following it from the sidelines somewhat and at the time I was quite impressed with the ferocious battle Midwest Management fought to keep ‘their’ airline independent. I thought, man those guys are really proud of their employees...

I don't feel that way about them anymore...

Flyboydan

I think Timmy will be getting a raise in his bonuses or possibly even an under the table payment from TPG so in actuality he doesn't lose a dime.

CaptainInop

Why not just pay by seniority instead of aircraft size? I understand the big airplane = more revenue argument, but so what. All the revenue goes into the same pot and is then paid to the pilots out of that pot. Just because your plane may be earning more revenue for the company, it doesn't mean you're working any harder than someone on a plane earning less revenue.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

I agree except with the "Fair to the grumpy old men act" I think over 60 guys/gals should be getting paid in reverse seniority.

You work until 61 - fine but you lose 25%, 62 - another 25%,, etc. So if you stay until 65 you'll actually work for free that year.
This "experience schmerence" fee paid by the grumps should be distrributed evenly among the under 60 folks.

Call it the PGA Act - PLZ Go Away Act!

AZFlyer

"Productivity per pilot is also less than at comparably sized airlines."

How exactly can they quantitatively measure this?

The pilots fly where and when they're told to do so, no one has crashed and everyone is still alive. Sounds good to me.

Am I missing something?