aa73

757: I see where you are going with this, but you are wording it differently.

Yes, PAA had almost 50% pilots go to DL... but TWA had 100% of its pilots go to AA, not 20%. The 20% just happens to be the number that survived furlough. Had DL furloughed right after the PAA deal, most if not all of newly-brought-over PAA pilots would've hit the streets.

My point is that AA could have done what DL did - and only taken half of TWA empployees... out of seniority...or even none at all. The fact that they took ALL employees in an asset acquisition was not even necessary. But they did. So when you say, "un-integration", I say "they didn't even have to take you."

100% of your fellow TWA pilots have unlimited recall rights to AA. Not too rosy of a picture right now, but who's to say that it won't improve some day. The proof is shown with the number of TWA pilots accepting recall recently... because they are coming back at 12 year pay, straight to lineholder status, some on the 757/767. PAA would've been lucky to have gotten such a deal from DL. But you just don't hear so much about it simply because there was no massive furlough after their deal.

On one point we can agree... it definitely does not prove APA right in calling their own shots. That's why I am one of the few AA pilots who believe the new Bond/McCaskill bill makes the process fair - but not necessarily the outcome.

73

B757200ER

Good post, 7576.

I'll retort to your first sentence above: ALPA went along (facilitated, tacitly agreed to and encouraged) the APA-suggested seniority integration, because ALPA was at the time trying to get APA to join ALPA. Since there was a grass-roots campaign going on at the time, involving many APA pilots who supported ALPA to represent AA pilots, Duane Woerth decided to take the lowest of underahanded low roads and subvert the integration process by making a deal with APA and AA to basically allow whatever integration proposal APA came up with to go thru without ALPA objection, thereby sacrificing the 2400 TWA pilots for the greater goal of adding 11,000 AA pilots to the ALPA dues coffer. You're right---our beef is mainly with ALPA, for failing to represent us, subverting the integration process and failing to assist the TWA pilots politically, financially or legally. They did quite the opposite; they worked against us in all areas. APA and AA took advantage of this situation, got guarantees that ALPA would not sue and proceeded with the worst, most inequitable and most destructive seniority integration in airline labor history. A lawsuit (TWA Pilots Vs. ALPA) is ongoing, to bring all these facts to light, and hold ALPA accountable, much like Dukes/Spellacy did after PA/DL in '91.

Second, AA/APA did staple 1300 of TWA's 2400 pilots; I was one of them. We weren't just stapled to the bottom of the seniority list in January 2001, when the buyout was announced; they actually waited until April 9th, then saw an AA new-hire class of 60 started that day, then changed it to April 10th, to place us below 380 more new-hire AA pilots who weren't on the property, hadn't interviewed at AA, had no seniority numbers and were'nt even qualified or trained at AA yet. This stapled group included 200 MD80/717 Captains with 14 years of service.

Your third comment of APA idiots is right on; we have long memories. I know we're painting AA pilots with a long brush. Unfortunately, those 2 pilots weren't the only ones. It happened too frequently, and was unprofessional and insulting to all of us.

7576FO

B757200ER wrote,

Second, AA/APA did staple 1300 of TWA's 2400 pilots; I was one of them. We weren't just stapled to the bottom of the seniority list in January 2001, when the buyout was announced; they actually waited until April 9th, then saw an AA new-hire class of 60 started that day, then changed it to April 10th, to place us below 380 more new-hire AA pilots who weren't on the property, hadn't interviewed at AA, had no seniority numbers and were'nt even qualified or trained at AA yet. This stapled group included 200 MD80/717 Captains with 14 years of service.

7576 writes,
That is the way it is done. I did an internet search. I couldn't exactly find the Aircal date in 1986. But the Reno Air purchase was November 15, 1998. With stock tendered to AMR on December 14, 1998. The Reno Air pilots staple date is February 19th, 1999.

Your HI 8 reveals Comp date is Hire Date.
OCC date or Occupational date is __/__/____

I don't think it's a conspiracy that a class started the day before the ex TWA pilots OCC date.
I'm being sincere here and respectful. Just trying to add a little info.

Let's hope there are no furloughs announced in early August.

Sincerely 7576

B757200ER

I think it was purposely done to place those 60 new-hires in front of 1300 TWA pilots, myself. I'm sorry, but AA/APA has just conditioned me to think that way.

About furloughs, you may be right. Personally, I think they'll furlough about 300 (all ex-TWAers) and no recalls for a year.

And lastly, any senior AA Captain waiting around 'to see what happens' is most likely committing economic suicide. They're going to find themselves in chapter 11 with slashed retirements quickly unless they go sooner with retirement intact. Can't figure those guys out. THAT would save furloughs, certainly.

No recalls until Spring '09, either.

aa73

B757... I too was expecting a furlough announcement. Now, I'm not so sure. Currently, we are understaffed by at least 200 pilots for the rest of the summer. After the fleet parking this fall, we would be just right or maybe slightly overstaffed. However, there will be a HUGE training bubble with all the displacements PLUS the arrival of new 737s next year, which creates shortages on the line.

Now throw in some uncertainty on retirement #s in the next couple of months... the B-fund unit value 90 days ago was looking pretty good compared to today... and you can see why furloughs may very well not happen.

And finally, to complete the rumor mill plus a couple of facts, we will add a second JFK-EZE this December, plus we are **RUMORED** to announce JFK-Nice and JFK-Lyon. (I'll believe it when I hear it, but what the hey...)

73

Wheels up

Like I said the whole TWA asset buy was a total disaster. TWA should have gone it alone and sunk or swam on its own. Who knows, maybe it could have survived.

AA employees knew EXACTLY what was going to happen, just like Air Cal and Reno . . . . . the company was going to buy TWA force a seniority integration on the AA employees, then get rid of almost all the airplanes leaving AA native with diluted seniority. And that's what happened. I was in AA ops when the buy was announced on TV with a background shot in the TWA crew room in STL. The champagne corks were popping and there were whoops of glee. When I looked around in AA ops, everyone was sad or angry, and the Captain beside me goes, "Oh, sh*t. Not again." I think that sums it up.

If I were a ex-TWA furloughee, I'd drive on with life and forget about any chance of recall at American Airlines. The way things are going now, it's going to be bankrupt itself next winter. The airline industry is rapidly re-morphing into a travel method of the well-healed and it's going to get a lot smaller.

TonyMontana

Nah, Captain then, M.D. now.

TonyMontana

Good luck and Gods speed to all you guys. Most of you will soon have to go through what I did, and I wouldn't wish that journey on a broke d!ck dog, altho the ultimate destination IS awesome.

j1b3h0

To APA, there is only one thing lower than a TWA pilot: Eagle.