What's up with SFO and ANC ATC?!?!
07-10-2008, 12:00 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B777 FO
Posts: 416
What's up with SFO and ANC ATC?!?!
I had a couple of issues yesterday in both SFO and ANC with ATC.
First, quick one from LAX to SFO. The ATIS was calling for visual approaches to 28L,R but not any of the visual procedures. We finally asked what approach to expect since we didn't get that info when we checked in with approach. He told us to expect the Tipp Toe Visual to 28L. Ok so we set up for that and brief it. Then he says expect ILS 28R, no worries, we have that one out too. We switch controllers and she asks if we have the bridges in sight for the Tipp Toe to 28L. I could see a couple of bridges in the distance that looked in the right spot but we weren't positive as neither of us has done too much SFO lately. We told her no and she just repeated the question. I know why they were doing it, some haze had developed and she couldn't clear us for the visual that far out since the vis went down. I guess she figured she could turn us loose on the visual procedure if we saw the bridges. So we say no again and she says to expect ILS 28L. Again, no problem as it is already in there. We're trucking along and the next clearance is a turn to intercept the ILS 28R. I confirmed with her that she wanted 28R and not the left side and she said yes. We were kind of expecting it so that was no problem. All of this was within 10 minutes.
It seems that every time I go to SFO I get multiple runway/approach changes that are barely communicated before you are expected to do it. After that we get to about 200ft. and a United 737 goes through the intersection taking off from 1R. Talk about a zoo. It works ok if everything stays normal but one hiccup and all hell would break loose.
That brings us to the next leg up to ANC. Not as bad but still a strange clearance. Downwind for 7R the controller crosses a Dash 8 under us and tells him to keep his speed up. He was converging from about 10 o'clock and was keeping his speed up. Nothing wrong so far. Here's the crazy clearance. While still on downwind the Dash crosses under us and she asks if we have him in sight. We called the traffic and then she said "turn base on mile behind the Dash 8, cleared visual approach 7R. ***! Last time I looked I don't have any rear view mirrors to see a Dash 8 one mile BEHIND me. Not only that we were heavy with a Vapp of 154kts. We said unable and she turned us with no other issues.
I just had to vent, too many ATC issues in one day. It seems to be getting worse lately. Controllers seem to want to make visual approaches out of questionable situations. In the case of SFO, I don't know why there seem to be so many runway/approach changes in a short time span. I spent 8 years in EWR and never had these kinds of problems in much busier airspace.
First, quick one from LAX to SFO. The ATIS was calling for visual approaches to 28L,R but not any of the visual procedures. We finally asked what approach to expect since we didn't get that info when we checked in with approach. He told us to expect the Tipp Toe Visual to 28L. Ok so we set up for that and brief it. Then he says expect ILS 28R, no worries, we have that one out too. We switch controllers and she asks if we have the bridges in sight for the Tipp Toe to 28L. I could see a couple of bridges in the distance that looked in the right spot but we weren't positive as neither of us has done too much SFO lately. We told her no and she just repeated the question. I know why they were doing it, some haze had developed and she couldn't clear us for the visual that far out since the vis went down. I guess she figured she could turn us loose on the visual procedure if we saw the bridges. So we say no again and she says to expect ILS 28L. Again, no problem as it is already in there. We're trucking along and the next clearance is a turn to intercept the ILS 28R. I confirmed with her that she wanted 28R and not the left side and she said yes. We were kind of expecting it so that was no problem. All of this was within 10 minutes.
It seems that every time I go to SFO I get multiple runway/approach changes that are barely communicated before you are expected to do it. After that we get to about 200ft. and a United 737 goes through the intersection taking off from 1R. Talk about a zoo. It works ok if everything stays normal but one hiccup and all hell would break loose.
That brings us to the next leg up to ANC. Not as bad but still a strange clearance. Downwind for 7R the controller crosses a Dash 8 under us and tells him to keep his speed up. He was converging from about 10 o'clock and was keeping his speed up. Nothing wrong so far. Here's the crazy clearance. While still on downwind the Dash crosses under us and she asks if we have him in sight. We called the traffic and then she said "turn base on mile behind the Dash 8, cleared visual approach 7R. ***! Last time I looked I don't have any rear view mirrors to see a Dash 8 one mile BEHIND me. Not only that we were heavy with a Vapp of 154kts. We said unable and she turned us with no other issues.
I just had to vent, too many ATC issues in one day. It seems to be getting worse lately. Controllers seem to want to make visual approaches out of questionable situations. In the case of SFO, I don't know why there seem to be so many runway/approach changes in a short time span. I spent 8 years in EWR and never had these kinds of problems in much busier airspace.
07-10-2008, 03:45 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B777 FO
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by captnmajic
Now you're a smart feller and you know exactly what's going on. ATC wants to lighten their workload by forcing you to accept a visual so that things are now YOUR problem on the visual approach and not theirs. Keep up the good work and just say NO!
Originally Posted by Fliifast
File an ASAP report...If you don't know what that is...you don't have the program! We've corrected alot of issues from SID's, STAR's, ground control and ATC procedures.
See AC 120-66B ASAP
Fli
See AC 120-66B ASAP
Fli
07-10-2008, 04:50 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DAL Pilot
Posts: 1,133
Convince the environmentalists to "Pave the Bay" and these problems won't be happening! The controllers are just trying to keep the arrival rate up so they don't have to start holding and issuing flow times. It does suck getting switched back and forth, though!
07-10-2008, 05:50 PM
#7
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: Should know soon.....
Posts: 34
At least you don't have to go to IND where 5 miles in trail is a separation conflict, the 2 parallel runways are NEVER both open, you get assigned 210 kts when you are number 1 for the approach, a 12 mile final for the ILS is standard even when the wx is CAVU, and don't ever think of getting a takeoff clearance if somebody is marker inbound!
07-10-2008, 07:12 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Not2fast
At least you don't have to go to IND where 5 miles in trail is a separation conflict, the 2 parallel runways are NEVER both open, you get assigned 210 kts when you are number 1 for the approach, a 12 mile final for the ILS is standard even when the wx is CAVU, and don't ever think of getting a takeoff clearance if somebody is marker inbound!
07-10-2008, 07:16 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 1,530
Originally Posted by ryguy
I had a couple of issues yesterday in both SFO and ANC with ATC.
First, quick one from LAX to SFO. The ATIS was calling for visual approaches to 28L,R but not any of the visual procedures. We finally asked what approach to expect since we didn't get that info when we checked in with approach. He told us to expect the Tipp Toe Visual to 28L. Ok so we set up for that and brief it. Then he says expect ILS 28R, no worries, we have that one out too. We switch controllers and she asks if we have the bridges in sight for the Tipp Toe to 28L. I could see a couple of bridges in the distance that looked in the right spot but we weren't positive as neither of us has done too much SFO lately. We told her no and she just repeated the question. I know why they were doing it, some haze had developed and she couldn't clear us for the visual that far out since the vis went down. I guess she figured she could turn us loose on the visual procedure if we saw the bridges. So we say no again and she says to expect ILS 28L. Again, no problem as it is already in there. We're trucking along and the next clearance is a turn to intercept the ILS 28R. I confirmed with her that she wanted 28R and not the left side and she said yes. We were kind of expecting it so that was no problem. All of this was within 10 minutes.
It seems that every time I go to SFO I get multiple runway/approach changes that are barely communicated before you are expected to do it. After that we get to about 200ft. and a United 737 goes through the intersection taking off from 1R. Talk about a zoo. It works ok if everything stays normal but one hiccup and all hell would break loose.
That brings us to the next leg up to ANC. Not as bad but still a strange clearance. Downwind for 7R the controller crosses a Dash 8 under us and tells him to keep his speed up. He was converging from about 10 o'clock and was keeping his speed up. Nothing wrong so far. Here's the crazy clearance. While still on downwind the Dash crosses under us and she asks if we have him in sight. We called the traffic and then she said "turn base on mile behind the Dash 8, cleared visual approach 7R. ***! Last time I looked I don't have any rear view mirrors to see a Dash 8 one mile BEHIND me. Not only that we were heavy with a Vapp of 154kts. We said unable and she turned us with no other issues.
I just had to vent, too many ATC issues in one day. It seems to be getting worse lately. Controllers seem to want to make visual approaches out of questionable situations. In the case of SFO, I don't know why there seem to be so many runway/approach changes in a short time span. I spent 8 years in EWR and never had these kinds of problems in much busier airspace.
First, quick one from LAX to SFO. The ATIS was calling for visual approaches to 28L,R but not any of the visual procedures. We finally asked what approach to expect since we didn't get that info when we checked in with approach. He told us to expect the Tipp Toe Visual to 28L. Ok so we set up for that and brief it. Then he says expect ILS 28R, no worries, we have that one out too. We switch controllers and she asks if we have the bridges in sight for the Tipp Toe to 28L. I could see a couple of bridges in the distance that looked in the right spot but we weren't positive as neither of us has done too much SFO lately. We told her no and she just repeated the question. I know why they were doing it, some haze had developed and she couldn't clear us for the visual that far out since the vis went down. I guess she figured she could turn us loose on the visual procedure if we saw the bridges. So we say no again and she says to expect ILS 28L. Again, no problem as it is already in there. We're trucking along and the next clearance is a turn to intercept the ILS 28R. I confirmed with her that she wanted 28R and not the left side and she said yes. We were kind of expecting it so that was no problem. All of this was within 10 minutes.
It seems that every time I go to SFO I get multiple runway/approach changes that are barely communicated before you are expected to do it. After that we get to about 200ft. and a United 737 goes through the intersection taking off from 1R. Talk about a zoo. It works ok if everything stays normal but one hiccup and all hell would break loose.
That brings us to the next leg up to ANC. Not as bad but still a strange clearance. Downwind for 7R the controller crosses a Dash 8 under us and tells him to keep his speed up. He was converging from about 10 o'clock and was keeping his speed up. Nothing wrong so far. Here's the crazy clearance. While still on downwind the Dash crosses under us and she asks if we have him in sight. We called the traffic and then she said "turn base on mile behind the Dash 8, cleared visual approach 7R. ***! Last time I looked I don't have any rear view mirrors to see a Dash 8 one mile BEHIND me. Not only that we were heavy with a Vapp of 154kts. We said unable and she turned us with no other issues.
I just had to vent, too many ATC issues in one day. It seems to be getting worse lately. Controllers seem to want to make visual approaches out of questionable situations. In the case of SFO, I don't know why there seem to be so many runway/approach changes in a short time span. I spent 8 years in EWR and never had these kinds of problems in much busier airspace.
07-10-2008, 08:05 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
Posts: 305
"ATC wants to lighten their workload by forcing you to accept a visual so that things are now YOUR problem on the visual approach and not theirs."
Visual approaches at major airports do not lighten a controller's workload. Visual approaches are run for one reason- to allow more airplanes to land in a given period of time. During an arrival push at LAX with VMC weather, airplanes can land literally four abreast on each of the runways. If ILS's must be used, the closest they can be is two abreast, one to 25L, the other to 24R, each with an airplane 2.5nm in trail, provided that no wake turbulence seperation is required.
ILS's are easier to work. Visuals require 50-75% more talking. Visual approaches are the only way that airline over-scheduling can be accomodated. Unfortunately, $140/barrel oil is helping with that.
Bruce Morey
Current DHC8 FO
Retired Air Traffic Controller
Visual approaches at major airports do not lighten a controller's workload. Visual approaches are run for one reason- to allow more airplanes to land in a given period of time. During an arrival push at LAX with VMC weather, airplanes can land literally four abreast on each of the runways. If ILS's must be used, the closest they can be is two abreast, one to 25L, the other to 24R, each with an airplane 2.5nm in trail, provided that no wake turbulence seperation is required.
ILS's are easier to work. Visuals require 50-75% more talking. Visual approaches are the only way that airline over-scheduling can be accomodated. Unfortunately, $140/barrel oil is helping with that.
Bruce Morey
Current DHC8 FO
Retired Air Traffic Controller
